Chainsmurfs

[mattgslater]

K, lookin' for development advice for a pair of teams, one for my home league and one matching one for FUMBBL [R].

First off, I'm not a great Dwarf coach. My basic hindrances as a coach (chiefly a tendency to get too aggressive for my own plans) are magnified by Dwarfs, and even though their upside plays into my chief advantages (I build good blocking formations, largely why I get so aggressive). I'm better off with mobile teams that do a fair job of laying the smack: my record with Humans and High Elves is about .650, noticeably better than that with Orcs, Chaos, or Chaos Dwarfs, where I'm about .550 The purpose of the FUMBBL team is to force myself to play a more risk-averse game, by opening up serious consequences for failure and making everything my psyche wants to do look so [/i]easy[/i] but so often result in a smack on the wrist.

For the league, I want to do something different, while playing the same build the same way. See, my home league consists of me and a bunch of relative novices who range from awful to decent, but not ready for prime-time (even more so than me; I feel like I'm still very inconsistent, but these guys don't know the ins and outs of the game). On the whole, the better coaches are playing the speed teams. A positioning-oriented bash team is just what the doctor ordered.

See, I don't mis-position a lot, but when I do (like when I forgot to back up my thin screen on T1 of the last game) it tends to be in ways that tempt Nuffle. I like to set up my blocks, see? Good for busting cages, bad for making them. I don't miscalc a lot, but I love them easy actions, so I'm also more susceptible to Nuffle. I understand PO, I get its power, and I dislike it sincerely. I don't want to build around it, but I don't feel an incredible need to shy away from it. My plan is to learn to live with (and build around) the tendency to roll too many dice, and reduce the number of brain-farts by gaming play development more carefully. Hopefully, this should have the side-effect of speeding up my play.

To that end, I'm building a team that is good at coping with too many dice rolled and bad at coping with positioning errors: Dwarfs. I have a weird relationship with Dwarfs: historically I have not been good with them, and have been very effective against them. My Orcs have always crushed Dwarfs, and see above for why I struggle with a team like this. Last week I played a pickup TT game against one of the more promising rookie coaches, him with Orcs and me with Dwarfs, and I taught him to surf, clearing the pitch in the process.

My home league team will start with max positionals and 3 RRs, then hire an Apoth and Blocker, the FUMBBL team will start with max positionals, Apoth, and 2 RRs, and hire a Blocker. My goal is not to kill you, but to give you a hug and send you off for a nice tankard ... to the face. They won't have the advantage I'm soon to build with the Wildsquigz (need 3 skills, close to one) that they can make you want to Zig and then surf your wingers (unless I get +MA on multiple skill players), but they will be able to force defenses to start WAAAY back. With both teams, I'm anticipating about 30 games: one over 3 months, one over probably 2 years.

Here's my build plan: Guard across the board as much as possible, then get myself a bunch of Grab before I do anything else. Side Step on doubles. Pro early for Slayers (before Jugg/POMB for one, after POMB for the other). Chain chain chain. The goal is to turn everything into a scrum and win all the scrums, because that's what I do. If I don't make it about a scrum over the ball I lose, and if I do only Nuffle can give you a prayer. I don't want to get much Mighty Blow at all until I have at least 3-4 Grabbers; my basic plan is only to POMB with one Slayer, and otherwise just hit everyone with Too Much Block/Guard to stay viable, and mostly Grab my way to dominance, by leaving my opponent terrified of the wide zone and unable to compete in the middle. Improve very slowly (top two skills sap SPP from Blockers by setting up teammate assists and encouraging blocks-for-pushes), so as to always maintain a nice base of key skills and a low TV-to-experience ratio. Build Blitzers and Runners to recover and protect the ball: #1 Runner gets Block and KOR, #2 gets Block and Leader. On a stat, the +stat Runner and a third TRR displace the Leader, and up goes the TV.

What do you think? Is this a sensible plan? Would it finally make Dwarfs fun?

[Smurf]

Some guy is using passing for the dwarves. It's mad because no one expects it and also he doesn't use it often and only when he can score. So it is a suprise because of the running game and turn into a passing game.

I'm trying to do something similar with Chaos Dwarves. Ok CLPOMB is the standard format. But I like claw and mb but not keen on PO. Therefore my theory is Frenzy and Guard. It will make the little stunty buggers more mobile. If they get to a 5 skill then stand firm. Other doubles will have to be reviewed but can't think of much to help them smash.

[pauli42]

Hi Matt,

dont forget your own advise you gave me, add more Stand Firm for the positioning game! Dwarfs dont like to be pushed back and Side Step doesnt help much!
And i am not sure to rate grab over MB, because outnumbering your opponent is pure gold for dwarfs.

hf,

Pauli

[mattgslater]

Hi Matt,
And i am not sure to rate grab over MB, because outnumbering your opponent is pure gold for dwarfs.

That's kind of why I'm doing this, in fact. I don't generally rate Grab over MB, except when I can't spam skills for some reason (I might forgo one MB for Grab... but not the first or second one, and I would only load up on Grab after loading up on Block, Guard, MB and SF, and with at least one Frenzy). But I don't like relying on MB, even though I have historically done just that. I feel cheap when I'm playing 11-on-4 in the second half: I mean, I'll take it, but my aim is to improve and to help my fellow coaches improve in my TT league without embarrassing myself on FUMBBL.

So yeah, I guess I should enumerate my objectives.
1) I want to build a competitive, effective Blood Bowl team. I don't mind taking a few slightly suboptimal picks, given that I'm running a Tier 1 team with really good starting skills (like taking Grab ahead of Mighty Blow), but I don't want to do anything dumb. In game, I'm going to play my hardest all the time.
2) I want to improve my positioning game, and to see if I can do it while still giving in to my overblocking tendencies at least a little bit. I think Dwarfs will force me to play tighter.
3) I want to see if I can make a boring team fun. Dwarfs have pretty much one strategy. Yes, it's possible to play passing Dwarfs, and just about any Dwarf team is capable of pulling off garbage comps if they dominate the game. I want to try something different. I don't mind caging up and smashing face, but the boring old "knock 'em down, then modify the injury roll" route needs some sprucing up.
4) I want to get good at Grab. I know lots of little games and gimmicks, but having never actually put more than one Grab player on the pitch at a time, I'm sure there's a whole little world of tactica there to explore.

First game down, two surfs in a 2-0 Dorf-on-Dorf victory, 1-1 Cas. His Slayers were out, but he had an extra RR. Doubleskulled twice and both-downed on 2d once on surf attempts, but still put two Longbeards in Reserves in the first half. The kickoff table was kind to me in both halves, but my block dice were absolutely horrid (more "nothing" results than pows on 2d blocks in the third quarter, at least five double-skulls, plus skulls on two of my four 1d blocks, and a skull re-rolling one). Still, a high kick made protecting the ball a non-issue, so once I got control I maintained it for the whole game, and a kind-of-gratuitous Blitz result turned the second half into an 11-on-9 scrum, which I won with ease despite some pretty hinky dice. My opponent went 0-2 on KO rolls with his Runner, and his Apoth on an MNG failed where mine saved a dead guy to Reserves: that didn't hurt, either: Dwarfs down two men when the Blitz comes is a recipe for lockout. No improvements yet: 3 SPP each Runner, and Blockers with 2 and 5.

[Shteve0]

Matt

I suspect you’ll be pleased with the results of your experiment. My own experience with dwarves is that you can get bogged down very easily, and while MB is a useful skill, Guard/Grab(/Tackle/Block) spam will give you a fantastic ability to simply roll your opponents outside either off the park or around the outside of your cage, particularly in combo with the frenzy trollslayers. I know I’m in a minority (of one?) here, but I find Grab to be an exceptionally reliable skill in combo with high ST players, markedly more so than MB. I reckon with a whole load of Guard, the dwarves strength in being able to clump together and force their opponents into unfavourable block matchups is massively increased. Obviously the ability to retain your shape while maximizing chain blocks is a wonderful asset too.

Grab is not only an overtly aggressive skill, though it has that application – as you've pointed out before, you rewrite the game for your opponent and give him positioning headaches he didn’t have before. Suddenly you control the entire flank as his ability to shut off channels is entirely removed, potentially leaving him open to crowdsurfs (much like Dodge/Sidestep on a Frenzy player). A warning, though – prepare to be disappointed to roll a both down occasionally as you go looking for push results, even against non-block opponents!

Good luck, and keep us posted. Very interested in following this!

Cheers

S

[MattDakka]

After Guard (assuming you don't roll doubles) take Fend on your Longbeards and Blitzers, very useful against Clawpombers (a bane for a team which relies on high AV and can't cope well with losing players).
The 2 Trollslayers take MB, PO, Tackle, they are the dedicated killers;
one Runner is fine, this way you can have one more Guard player, with Block, Tackle and AV 9 out of the box.
When you take Leader on the Runner you can play with 2 rr + 1 Leader rr, in order to improve TV efficiency.

[Fassbinder75]

I've played Dwarves for a couple of seasons with the same intent, developing one Runner as a pure passer and the other as a runner/blitzer. Playing defence against faster opponents (everyone basically) is a nightmare, especially at 11 on 11. It gets harder when you dedicate one of your two MA6 players as a pure passer because you reduce his effectiveness as a defensive blitzer.

With that in mind, I would develop a side that specialises in hurting players primarily rather than a cover the field, bend-but-don't break style of defence. Pack heaps of MB & PO, some additional Frenzy, a Dirty Player - everything you can to make your opponent miserable on offense. Make him score as fast as he can, eventually you'll win the attrition war and with your medium-fast offense be able to make up a scoring deficit. It's a much higher risk than playing a ball control 2-1 grind, but potentially more interesting epecially if you get the CAS.

[mattgslater]

I've played Dwarves for a couple of seasons with the same intent, developing one Runner as a pure passer and the other as a runner/blitzer. Playing defence against faster opponents (everyone basically) is a nightmare, especially at 11 on 11. It gets harder when you dedicate one of your two MA6 players as a pure passer because you reduce his effectiveness as a defensive blitzer.

Oh, that's not my plan. My plan is to build one Runner as a retriever and the other as a blitzer/mobile assist, really there mostly for his MA. Dropping a Runner as the other improves is definitely an option. I'd only build a Runner into a pure passer type starting at skill #4, and only after Block, KOR, and Fend.

With that in mind, I would develop a side that specialises in hurting players primarily rather than a cover the field, bend-but-don't break style of defence. Pack heaps of MB & PO, some additional Frenzy, a Dirty Player - everything you can to make your opponent miserable on offense. Make him score as fast as he can, eventually you'll win the attrition war and with your medium-fast offense be able to make up a scoring deficit. It's a much higher risk than playing a ball control 2-1 grind, but potentially more interesting epecially if you get the CAS.

Quite aware of this. Trying hard to avoid playing attrition war in my home league, because I won't get any games if I play that way. I know how to kill; I want to dominate. I want my opponent to feel like the resources are there on the pitch, but that there's nothing to be done with them, like they're in for two hours of tar baby badness that their team will probably survive, but might leave them feeling stupid and confounded and a little bit butt-hurt. People won't play me if I'm loaded up on POMB; I'm thinking only the Slayers, and maybe the last Blocker, will immediately be designed for POMB, with most of the MB for Blockers showing up at skill #3 or #4 and the PO at #5 (if they ever get there), after Guard and Grab and/or Stand Firm. Blitzers will go for Guard and Fend first, then MB and PO.

Fend may be a common #3 skill for me, but I want to load up on Grab first, if only for giggles. My main anti-ClawPOMB strategy will be to keep my TV low and my Guard level high: in the league, there isn't much in the way of Chaotic opposition beyond Too Many Skaven.

So...
Blockers 1-5: Guard - Grab/SF - SF/MB - SF/MB - PO
Blocker 6: MB - PO - Frenzy - Guard - SF
Blitzers: Guard - Fend/MB - MB/PO - PO/Pro/Fend - Pro/Fend
Slayers: MB - PO - Pro - Guard - SF
Runner 1: Block - KOR - Fend - Accurate - Pass
Runner 2: Block - Leader - Fend - Tackle - Pro (or derailed track for stats or doubles).
Doubles: Side Step, or Guard for Runners. Dodge second doubles, first after Stand Firm. After SS/SF and Dodge and Guard, doubles becomes Diving Tackle for Blockers, Mighty Blow for Runners, ignore for Slayers and Blitzers.
10: Ignore except as #3 or later on Blitzers or Slayers (either bonus), ignore on Blockers, take +MA on Runners.
11: Ignore on Slayers or Blockers, take +AG on Blitzers or Runners.
12: Take +ST. Break Tackle after +ST and Guard for Blockers or Blitzers.

[nufflehatesme]

hi matt, like the team idea of mass grab (especially in your "novice" TT league). only issue i see is that without mb your blockers might never get past the 1st skill. not sure how to fix that, besides handing off to blockers as much as possible to run in the score

[pauli42]

Runner 1: Block - KOR - Fend - Accurate - Pass

That is your orc thrower *G* and you waste a MA6 dwarf on your defence with Accurate and Pass. On your Orc-Team you have your 4 Blitzer, Lineorcs, Goblins etc. as ball receivers but on a dwarf team you have only three AG3 with MV>4 Player left!

I dont think that dwarfs need any offence skills and i always build my Runners as defence blitzers with Block, Tackle, Guard and Fend and the other like you Block, KOR, Tackle, Fend. On my offence a ball carrier with SH, Guard and Fend is so nice, his Guards fits very well with his buddies around him.

My dwarf style is to pick every skill for the defence and no offence skills. The Blitzers are playing more the aggressive part and the "Runners" are my defence blitzers and i need two MV6 Block+Tackle players in my backfield to stop everything that comes through my blocker line.

Positioning, Patience and a low risk playstyle e.g only 2-dice Blocks, no GOF etc. are the keys for playing dwarfs, because the cant recover from a turnover and the bad positioning it cause.

One last thing, dont over comit to one side, let at least one winger with a helping hand in reach stay on the other side of the pitch. Always keep in mind, that if you run to far to one side, you cant move back quick enough.

[Fassbinder75]

I re-read your original post Matt, I must have skimmed bits first time around. I think you'll need to strike a balance between "fun" and "dominate" with Dwarves. Taking mass Grab could be cool if you can funnel it towards a Slayer crowd surf, but it will be a long road to get there.

I would expect that you'll get jack of playing them because everyone else is faster, stronger or more agile than you are, and a lot of stuff will need to fall your way to get your grand plan going - but I'm really keen to see if you can do it.

[Hitonagashi]

How long is this TT league Matt?

That's the major part that worries me...without MB, you are looking at 50 odd games to get the Longbeards to where they need to be. Sure, that's a viable FUMBBL plan, but I suspect, your TT league may get bored of this team before then!

[mattgslater]

Playoffs and all, I'm expecting 20-24 matches for the regular season, and if I do well in the playoffs (I always do) the team will be available for dusting off and playing occasional matches for years to come.

My basic plan is to load up on Guard and Grab with Blockers: I'm sure I'll get a lot of the former and some of the latter by the time the playoffs come. I don't need anybody over 2 skills. I'd be quite happy to peak out looking something like this:

3 Blitzers/Runners with multiple improvements, plus hopefully either Block Runner or Guard Blitzer for the other one;
2 Slayers, one with POMB and hopefully Pro, one maybe with MB and hopefully PO
4-5 Guard Blockers, at least 2 with Grab and hopefully one with SF, SS, or MB
1-2 rookie Blockers

I see the argument for Tackle as #4 normal skill on a Runner. I don't think it will ever be relevant unless one Runner starts hogging MVPs (unlikely in our "roll two and pick one" environment), but if it is, I might do it.

[mattgslater]

Ran into a concept High Elf team with nothing but Linemen. I got a Perfect Defense and went super-aggro, to deny my opponent good line-blocks.They kind of made a wacky T1 play with the ball, hoping to capitalize on my low speed, but I locked them out, and a little luck later I had myself a nice stop, an interception on the redirect attempt, and two surfs. Second half, my opponent set up a 303 defensive line, and Nuffle obliged me a blitz-free line surf. He actually set up really, really deep, so deep that he rolled a Blitz! on the kickoff and decided to do nothing. I got halfway into his half of the field before he came in to stop me, and when he did, he let me surf a fourth guy. I tried to get some SPP onto my Blockers with garbage Comps to Runners, but three TRR counters (over two halves) and Fawndough's Headband were all for nought. Still, came away 2-0 again, and got improvements on the Runners: one has Guard and one has Block.

2 games in, haven't been able to get too concept-y, except for the part about offering beer to the opposing team. Lots of that going on.

[pauli42]

Well done Matt, 2-0 is still a perfect dwarfn win... offering beer is the best part for your opponent and dont forget to add hankies *G*

One question left: Do you think you can tranfer your build idea to Chaos Dwarfs?