Chainsmurfs

[mattgslater]

I kind of feel like I was expected to win that game: it was nothing but High Elf linos with 4 RRs.

202 line, T1 crowdsurf setup, in case anyone doesn't know it. 7 men, 6 actions. I filled in the line in this case with men in the squares left empty in the diagram below, as his setup was very deep and even though he did roll a Blitz!, he couldn't have gone into my backfield (lie of the ball wouldn't have given him much of an opening anyway). Still, he could have run up and blitzed one of my Slayers, preventing the surf, but he didn't see it, I guess.

– – – –|– – – – – – –|– – z –
– – – –|– – – – – – –|– z – –
– – – –|b - b b S – S|– – – –
– – – –|– x – x – x –|– – – –

I originally thought of the team as a Chaos Dwarf idea. I even asked Hito for his input on my planned build, but he's been a busy boy lately.

The important things are:

1) A boatload of Block/Guard. Some ST would be nice but is not necessary.
2) 2+ each Frenzy and Grab. 6 total (3-4 Frenzy, 2-3 Grab?) would be nice.
3) At least ten guys who can hit and take a hit.
4) 1-2 POMBers.
5) A firm enough skill base to take some Side Step to use on the offensive line. (One is enough.)
6) Enough maneuverability or toughness to consistently win positioning battles throughout the drive, preferably with the toughness to survive match-to-match or the MA/AG to replace losses quickly.

It could probably be done with Humans, but only if you had a few Linemen with doubles. Orcs are definitely a contender. Norse are the best out-of-the-box, but their low AV makes this a risky game, and it's very hard to get Grab on a Norse team without forfeiting precious Guard. Dark Elves could luck into it, but whether or not to take Grab is completely out of the control of a DE coach.

[Smeborg]

Norse are the best out-of-the-box, but their low AV makes this a risky game, and it's very hard to get Grab on a Norse team without forfeiting precious Guard.

I suggest Khorne might be the best at all this, as they have 7 Frenzy players on the pitch (2 of them with Horns/Juggernaut), and 4 players who can take Grab as a normal skill. The same 4 players are the most likely to inhabit the dugout, being AV7, but they will get more resilient with Blodge, and they have Regen.

[mattgslater]

Norse are the best out-of-the-box, but their low AV makes this a risky game, and it's very hard to get Grab on a Norse team without forfeiting precious Guard.

I suggest Khorne might be the best at all this, as they have 7 Frenzy players on the pitch (2 of them with Horns/Juggernaut), and 4 players who can take Grab as a normal skill. The same 4 players are the most likely to inhabit the dugout, being AV7, but they will get more resilient with Blodge, and they have Regen.

Wait, AV 7 is too risky, but no Block is not?

How about this? Norse, and if you get to 2 skills with a Lino without doubling take Frenzy.

[Shteve0]

Smeborg, until they're an official team, you'd be pushing water up hill trying to get them universally TTL legal, and that could (and should) be years away yet.

I'd suggest that dwarves with full positionals give you exactly what you're looking for in Block spam, S-Access for grab and guard and 2 starting frenzy. No starting A-access though, admittedly.

[mattgslater]

I don't need A-access. Eventually a Blocker will double.

Dwarfs are quite perfect. You could try it with Khorne (FWIW, my major objection is how non-Bloodletter-y the Bloodletters are), but I think Dwarfs will be great.

I think I'm settling on a split build for my two Slayers, and also for my Blitzers' later improvements.

Barring stats or doubles, Papa will be my POMBer and may end up being my only MB player (at least until my TV gets so high I need to have it or die), and Brawny will build like a Blocker with Guard, Stand Firm, and Pro to be his first three skills. For the Blitzers, I think both will start with Guard and SF, Dodge on doubles, but at #3 one will get Frenzy. So far, 2 games in, both are on 0 SPP, along with only one Blocker: everyone else has either a Cas, an Int, an MVP, or 2 TDs each for the Runners. I have 120k saved, have nothing to buy for a little while if you ask me.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg, until they're an official team, you'd be pushing water up hill trying to get them universally TTL legal, and that could (and should) be years away yet.

I care little about the team being "universally TTL legal" or not, I'm happy to wait for the wheels of bureaucracy to turn in their usual slow way on that issue. For now all that matters is that the team is legal in one of the TT leagues in which I play (it helps of course that I am league commish), and that not one objection has been raised by any of the coaches (far from it, there seems to be only positive interest). I may also allow the team in a non-NAF tourney early next year, the team would be clearly announced in the tourney rules, no-one other than the tourney organiser (probably myself, but not necessarily) has to rule on whether the team is "legal" or not.

In this small way, I hope to influence through playtesting whether the team becomes more widely "legal" or not (whether positively or negatively, I don't know yet, it depends on playtesting). I won't hide that I find the team rather entertaining on first encounter, and it doesn't seem obviously "broken" to me at TV100 and thereabouts. How it performs in the longer term and in TT tourneys remains to be seen.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

There's no way anybody in my league (myself included) would play that team, so in our case it's moot.

[Shteve0]

Sorry Paul, I think I left myself open to misinterpretation there.

I mean simply that in trying to pursue this strategy, it makes more sense to aim to trial it with an official team. If anyone attempts to use it with an unofficial team, they first have to convince their playgroup to accept the houseruled Khorne roster (which it is, let's be fair - this is a houserule Cyanide team, nothing more, nothing less).

I have no objection to houseruling teams, or even this one in particular. Jase and I went on 3DB this month to talk about the Apes roster we're playing with up here (at least until immigration kick me out). My point is just that when devising a new strategy it makes sense to trial it on an accepted, playtested team that's in the official rules rather than have to petition your league to include a house roster first. I'm not doing the Khorne roster down by calling it a houseruled team; it is fundamentally just that, and not one that's universally liked.

Besides that, I don't actually think they're even that good a fit for what Matt's going for; certainly no more so than several official teams, or even several other unofficial rosters (NTBB Undead, Brettonians or Apes spring to mind, for example).

[Smeborg]

Thanks, ShtevO, I'm not looking for a debate on these issues, to say more would IMO just be spliting imaginary hairs on a bald man's head.

All the best.

[Shteve0]

Sure, fair enough. Just wanted to clarify that my original post it wasn't an attack on anyone or anything - just a rather mundane observation on the convenience of using conventional rosters.

But yes, apologies Matt for derailing your blog. Carry on

[mattgslater]

Man, it's hard getting [R] matches in the European wee hours (my dinner hour) with a low-value Dwarf team. Never thought about that part, but it's true.

I hate FUMBBL's new gamefinder. I don't end up talking to my opponent before I play them. I just greenlight all the matches that look viable and see who greenlights me. I accepted what turned out to be somebody's first ever BB match, and he hadn't even read the rules! Worse, I couldn't tell him nothing: every turn, he'd start out with a 7+ dodge or 1/3d block. Then after 7 turns he just quit on me. Ugh. I just KNOW they're going to make me take the concession, too. Like I don't get enough concessions from coaches who do know how to play , but that's another topic. DON'T PLAY LEARNING MATCHES IN COMPETITIVE DIVISIONS! This isn't just because your opponent will farm you, it's because your opponent may want a challenge, not a babysitting session.

Edit:Kryten is awesome. Game undone.

[mattgslater]

Scoreless tie against an Undead team. Guard Runner went BH right away; in fact, it wasn't until the last 5 turns when I was down to 2 positionals (Slayer, Blitzer, and all my Blockers) that I really got control of the game, and at that point two Pouring Rain failures and a failed GFI after the third attempt kept the ball on the ground. Frustrating but fun!

Three games in, and three interesting numbers, all the same.

0: Number of SPP between my two Blitzers.
0: Number of non-Blitzers without at least 2 SPP.
0: Number of TDs I've given up so far.

[pauli42]

I have the same with all my Blitzers, if i dont focus on scoring with them they wont skill up. I dont know why, but they are always the last pieces leveling up. One reason is that they where are more down or tied up then any one else and without frenzy and tackle they dont generate as much CAS as your Slayers and Blockers. If u score with your Runners, then there are only the MVP SSPs left for the Blitzers.....

Skilling up your Blitzers is hard, so keep an extra eye on them...they are great players!

[mattgslater]

One question left: Do you think you can tranfer your build idea to Chaos Dwarfs?

HOLY SNOTLING, you pay a high initial cost on CDs trying this strategy.

2 rosters:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=710302
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=670905

First, let's get all the value comparison out of the way.
1 more RR for CDs; Dwarfs could have one, so let's add 50k to the Dwarfs.
Dwarfs have a player missing; let's forget MNG and JM, and add the +20k value for the Slayer.
CDs have one more body, but it's only 40k and they're AV7 so it's cost of doing business.
CDs are +1 FF, so add +10k to the Dwarfs
After factoring for above, Dwarfs 1.16M, CD 1.28M; Dwarfs are 120k cheaper, albeit on fewer matches.

Now, on the pitch:
MA: CD have +2 on fast players, plus 2x SF/Sprint on two more fast players, one more slow player on the pitch (6 instead of 5). Teensy weensy edge: Chaos Dwarfs.
ST: CD have 2x ST4, Dwarfs have 2x Dauntless. Small edge: Chaos Dwarfs.
AG: Dwarfs have +1 AG on pitch, equal on roster. Small edge: Dwarfs.
AV: CD have 3x AV7, with a reserve; Dwarfs have 2x AV8/TS and 1x AV9/TS. Edge: Dwarfs.
Block/Guard: Dwarfs have 10/2, CDs have 10/2. Equal.
Sure Hands: Dwarfs have 2, CDs have 1. Edge: Dwarfs.
Blocking Skills: CDs have 6x Tackle; Dwarfs have 2x Frenzy. Edge: Dwarfs.

So, a Dwarf team 3 games in at 1.1M is a good match for a Chaos Dwarf team six games in at 1.28M.

Of course, Dwarfs have no good Dirty Player target.

[mattgslater]

Mmmm... frogs' legs! Nomnomnom!

Gave up my first TD to overaggressive defense and a Quick Snap, but came back to win 2-1 with 5-0 Cas, funny enough the first time I've ever beaten Slann (1-3-1 record). Now the Chainsmurfs are 3-1-0 (6-1 TD, 10-4 Cas), and every single player who has played for this team has SPP. Journeyman got a Cas, got himself hired as Harmony, so I have a full complement of 12 Smurfs. 2 Guard Blockers now, plus the skills on the Runners, but nobody is to double-digit SPP yet: the Chainsmurfs remain a theory so far, albeit one wrapped around a team that's coming along nicely, thanks.

Isn't that the first rule of BB, though? Form follows function; build yourself an effective, sustainable team, then work in your gimmick.

Edit: played another game against a rookie-ish coach with Chaos Dwarfs, and another against another rookie-ish coach with Dwarfs. The CD team was up 140k and for some crazy reason induced a Babe from cash, so I got to bring a Deathroller. The Deathroller was fun, basically an unblockable deterrent, but didn't really make a difference. I showed him a few tricks: he's a decent blocker, so there's something to work on. I'm going to replay his games in a few days so I can give him some concrete pointers. The other team was the beneficiary of no fewer than seven double-skulls from my guys (plus a Cas on a failed 3+ dodge with TRR, the only one I had to make all game), but despite regular intervention from the Hand of Nuffle, I managed a 1-1 tie, and a boatload of surfs in the second half. 4-2-0 record, 8-2 TD, 13-4 Cas (not counting surfs and stuff). Hefty and Handy both skilled, and having decided that Papa was going to be my only pure killer, I gave Guard to both of them. Now I have Guard on a Slayer, Runner, Blitzer, and 2 Blockers, plus Block/KOR on a Runner. FF6, 2 RR, Apoth, 12 men, 11 Block, 5 Guard: 1.28M and lookin' good.

I'm finding myself getting "anti-cherrypicked" in that smart coaches see teams with good records, boatloads of Guard and high AV, and shy away. It's not so hard to find games. It's hard to find good ones. It's also not good for my CR: my block-intensive style means I pull about the same win % regardless of CR (not quite), except against unrated coaches, where it's higher. So if I'm looking to buff my CR I'd rather face better opponents... you know, the ones who see me greenlight them with a team like this and decide to wait for another option rather than hash out 75 minutes of ugly against Too Much Guard. On the plus-side, it means I'm unbeaten in the last 12 matches (8-4-0). In the same time-frame I've been running a rookie undead team too, hoping to rebuild the glory of the Soft White Underbelly with a new team of the same theme and flavor text. They're coming along nicely, also 4-2-0, but maybe slightly less hardcore. Still, Undead strike fear into the hearts of rookie teams, so they have similar problems. I ventured out with a High Elf team to see if that would help ... but it turned out that my "take all [R] greenlights and greenlight all plausibly even matches" policy got me there too: their Dark Elf opposition was all gimmicky and too cool for positionals.

Hey, if you're worth the SPP, honey, I got the time.