Do you get rid of -ag Orc Blitzers?

[Hitonagashi]

But what is "optimal"? An optimal strategy is entirely dependent on your opposition, surely?

No.

We can pretty categorically state that taking DP as the first skill on every player is always a sub-optimal strategy, because given any opposition, the combination of MB/Block/Tackle/Guard etc will always provide greater rewards.

Optimal team build is, given a strategy, what is the best selection of players/skills that suit that strategy. Optimal strategy is the inherent riskiness of the move, and the pay-off for success compared to the bill for failing.

[dode74]

Knowing what is not optimal is not the same as knowing what is optimal

Optimal strategy is the inherent riskiness of the move, and the pay-off for success compared to the bill for failing.

We are talking at cross-purposes, I think. To me a strategy is an overall plan rather than an individual play. My point was that your optimal overall plan will depend on your opposition.

[Hitonagashi]

Knowing what is not optimal is not the same as knowing what is optimal

Optimal strategy is the inherent riskiness of the move, and the pay-off for success compared to the bill for failing.

We are talking at cross-purposes, I think. To me a strategy is an overall plan rather than an individual play. My point was that your optimal overall plan will depend on your opposition.

Sure it will.

This is a tactics section of a web forum about a game where the Commish can rewrite the rules at will...of course it's always possible to construct some wacky subset of a league where the general accepted best practices don't work. "My commissioner disallows the same player holding the ball for more than 2 turns in a row" is a great argument for two throwers!

The fact remains that Orcs are not a rocket science sort of race. They play with a grind, and they move down field, pretty much against everyone who they face. It's easily possible to state that "this format of play is optimal in the case where I have a reasonable balance of opponents and not 100% devoted to one opposing race".

For the sake of people's sanity, we usually don't bother clarifying every time we make a post

[dode74]

Well even orcs can't play that game all the time. High TV Chaos will likely tear them a new one (do they actually have one in the first place?) if they try that. That said, it's probably a good strategy the other 95% of the time

[Hitonagashi]

Well even orcs can't play that game all the time. High TV Chaos will likely tear them a new one (do they actually have one in the first place?) if they try that. That said, it's probably a good strategy the other 95% of the time

Disagree here. It's not a good strategy against high TV chaos, but it's still the only one that works. The only times I've seen Orc teams beat clawbomb spam teams in majors is block/guard/mb with guard and an early numbers edge.

What would you have them do, throw the ball and give the chaos 6 turns to score back?

[mattgslater]

Yup, the only green answer to ClawPOMB is the Sea of Little Red Dots: get them before they get you, keep them from making too many meaningful blocks while setting up tons of 'em for yourself. Works too, more often than you'd think. When it doesn't, it goes very, very badly.

[dode74]

the only green answer to ClawPOMB is the Sea of Little Red Dots: get them before they get you, keep them from making too many meaningful blocks while setting up tons of 'em for yourself.

That I agree with, but it's not the same strategy as you take against, say, elves, where you want to get into and stay in contact, maintaining a ST and guard advantage with tackle where you need it.

I'm certainly not claiming that Orcs can't beat CPOMB - far from it.

[Runejack]

My complements and heart felt thanks for the excellent read. This is above and beyond any sort of discussion I expected. From my own point of view, I have played orcs a bit on FUMBBL but nothing long term. This is my first time playing them in a league and this season was their second. I'd duplicated the thrower after having only one early on in my first season and struggling with ball handling. I never fielded more than 1 at a time except in the rare occasions numbers warrant it.

I'm definitely not a stubborn old fool that is set ... ok maybe I'm stubborn, old, and occasionally foolish, but I'm not set in my Blood Bowl ways. I am enjoying experimenting with the different feel to Orcs and see some merit in culling a few players. Do some of you folks actually run without a thrower? 4 BoB, 4 Blitzer, 3 Linorcs, 1 Troll, and a goblin for emergencies? Ha! My least favourite player is actually the Troll who my favourite thing to do is not touch him for turns on end so he doesn't go dumb.

Thank you for the excellent feedback. For the record, both -ag players are gone. I'm still considering more thoughts but I do know that my second thrower spends a lot of time on the bench for his SPP.

All the best,

Joel

[Hitonagashi]

You are exactly right on the way to use Trollikins .

You find a large clump of players, stick him in it, and the only time he activates is when there's only one dude left or everyone else has dodged away from him. Or to stand back up. He soaks up hits, and he is excellent at his job.

I think you'll find most players don't run with the Goblin. Emergency TTM isn't that bad an option, but the odds are hugely against it working. That said, I run with a goblin, and I like it.

With orcs, 4 BoBs, 4 Blitzers are essential. Throwers, Trolls, Goblins are all optional, but all can work for you. I usually have a gob and a troll, but no thrower....but I think a single thrower is not a bad investment for the options he gives you.

[mattgslater]

That I agree with, but it's not the same strategy as you take against, say, elves, where you want to get into and stay in contact, maintaining a ST and guard advantage with tackle where you need it.

Actually, that's my point. Basically, it is the same strategy, though implemented differently. Locks and pitch control are less important against bash, but you still want to outposition, stick in, corral, outblock, force bad odds. If you can choose the parameters of the stick-in, you can out-ST and out-Guard a POMB team. I know it's counterintuitive, but it's a time-honored principle. When the matchup doesn't favor you, go to your strengths and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! He's got CPOMB, but he's AV8, and if he goes down men it's curtains 'cause you start mobbing him with Guard and CPOMB doesn't do any good if you're getting one block a turn and taking five, plus a foul.

Is it safe? No. Does it work? Sometimes. I don't think it would work so well in 'Box because of distribution. But when CPOMB is but one of several strategies you face, these games feel more like mutually assured destruction than bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[Smeborg]

Do some of you folks actually run without a thrower? 4 BoB, 4 Blitzer, 3 Linorcs, 1 Troll, and a goblin for emergencies? Ha!

I have played with and against Orc teams with only Blitzers, Black Orcs and Linos. One of the Blitzers becomes the Runner (Sure Hands etc.).

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Whoa... isn't TV bloat only true if you lose games because of it?

Seriously if the dude likes his team then fairplay to him, if he wins brilliant.

+1.

[mattgslater]

I have played with and against Orc teams with only Blitzers, Black Orcs and Linos. One of the Blitzers becomes the Runner (Sure Hands etc.).

Works just fine. These guys have been a joy to coach: 6-2-0, haven't allowed a Cas in 52 turns. Just as much fun as the 'Smurfs, but they can, you know, find a game once in awhile.

[Rewslaun]

Do some of you folks actually run without a thrower? 4 BoB, 4 Blitzer, 3 Linorcs, 1 Troll, and a goblin for emergencies? Ha!

I have played with and against Orc teams with only Blitzers, Black Orcs and Linos. One of the Blitzers becomes the Runner (Sure Hands etc.).

All the best.

I cut my thrower after 2 of my blitzers boosted their agility. It really changed my offensive game plan.

[spubbbba]

I do think Orcs can benefit from starting with a thrower, sure hands is nice when you only have a couple of re-rolls and you can quickly get him block to protect him or leader for an extra re-roll. AV8 is less of an issue since he should be nice and safe in a cage most of the time. All stats are great for him, I have a ST4, blodge thrower who won me many a game.

Blitzers tend to skill up fast so if one of them gets +AG or doubles you can make him into a runner and drop the thrower. But I still like giving throwers blitzer or linemen utility skills, one of the disadvantages of having 8 must have positionals is that the players you’d normally give kick to end up on the LOS all the time.