Do you get rid of -ag Orc Blitzers?

[Darkson]

I didn't "want" JU first, but getting a doubles on the first roll, and having the POMB build in mind, I took the JU because I couldn't guarentee it later (of course, one got it a double for his 3rd skill but...).
If I could take a double without having to roll a double, then no, I wouldn't have taken it over MB or PO as a first skill, but it was there, and I had to choose to take it then and there, or have the possibility of not getting it at all.

[Smeborg]

Jump Up is a valuable skill in its own right, independent of the killer skills stack. Particularly useful against caging teams (the cage cannot form next to a prone player with JU). Not so valuable as a lone skill, though. More useful en masse. I loved having 4xJU on the old Norse team. So I can envisage some team builds (in the right environment and subject to fitting the playstyle of the coach) making good use of JU. On one Orc Blitzer? Not bad, and not "wrong", but nothing special.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Jump Up is a valuable skill in its own right, independent of the killer skills stack. Particularly useful against caging teams (the cage cannot form next to a prone player with JU). Not so valuable as a lone skill, though. More useful en masse. I loved having 4xJU on the old Norse team. So I can envisage some team builds (in the right environment and subject to fitting the playstyle of the coach) making good use of JU. On one Orc Blitzer? Not bad, and not "wrong", but nothing special.

All the best.

+1. Better on AV9, and Orc Blitzers often find themselves in position to take hits. You can do a lot worse.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Jump Up ain't a great skill for an Orc Blitzer.

[Hitonagashi]

+1. Better on AV9, and Orc Blitzers often find themselves in position to take hits. You can do a lot worse.

Sorry to pick on you here Matt, but you've just activated one of my pet hates. Go raage!

When you are analysing a skill, the criteria should never be solely about how good/bad that skill is. The only thing that matters is how good a skill is in relation to the other options you could choose. Diving Catch is indisputably purely a positive skill. It has no downsides and gives you upsides. Why do people not take it? Because there is always always a better skill to take.

In the case of a first skill orc blitzer, are we really arguing that Jump Up is better than Mighty Blow/Tackle/Guard (out of the normals), or Dodge (out of the doubles)?

I fully accept that Jump Up is not a bad skill. I've taken it myself on AG 3 players, and it's very useful indeed on your primary blitzer. Would I take it on a rookie? No. Personally, I'd go Dodge, because Blodge/Guard is always amazing. It's the fallacy of Bloodbowl skills, that people only look at how much benefit taking a skill has given you, and how effective it was for you, rather than comparing it with the effectiveness of another option.

Rant over!

[mattgslater]

Totally with you there, Joe.

Here's what I'm saying: when you pick your skills, you pick for a cocktail of several often-competing factors.

1) Overall skill quality: there are some skills that you just learn to take more often, like Guard, Block, Dodge, and Mighty Blow. There is no end of good one-off reasons not to go on skill quality alone, but if you ignored them all you'd mostly do alright.

2) Style and strategy: often it's worth upgrading or downgrading a skill by one notch, if that skill is important to your style, or if you don't make great use of it, or if there's an alternative that seems worthy. Dodge-free elves make sense in some formats, and Saurii Standing Firm was more novel than stupid. Too Much Guard is fun, but there really is a point of diminishing returns, and having 10 of them at 1.5M is a little bit of a luxury: the Chainsmurfs might be better off with a Mighty Blow Slayer or something, for instance.

3) Long-term plans and scarcity: maybe your doubles come a little too soon. Taking a double one skill early is usually a little more justifiable than taking it two skills early, but if the double is a good skill in its own right, this mitigates it some, no?

4) Opposition. Perhaps you are looking at the schedule coming up, and the first thing you think is, "Hmm... three elves in the next seven games. I'm going to need this guy to spot off redirects all the time, and I'm not facing many claws." That makes Jump Up marginally better.

5) Combo value. Not only is there primary combo value (JUPOMB), but there's secondary combo value, like the aforementioned AV9/JU. It has other combo potential too, but probably not on this piece.

Since you'd grab it with gusto at 31, and without too much reluctance at 16, and if you're not poor on, say, Guard, and you see where you'd use it before 31 SPP, and the opposition you face is relatively vulnerable to Jump Up, then the quality gap between MB or Guard and Jump Up is perhaps not enough to make up the difference in the analysis. This is even more true if there are more important games coming up late enough to give this guy a chance to improve two more times, say if you play a seasonal league with a postseason tournament.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I would only take Jump Up on an ordinary Orc Blitzer after I had Guard, MB, PO and Tackle.
So as a 5th skill it is OK yeah.

[mattgslater]

I would only take Jump Up on an ordinary Orc Blitzer after I had Guard, MB, PO and Tackle.
So as a 5th skill it is OK yeah.

What about a 4th skill if you already had lots of Tackle on the team? Or if your initial build plan didn't involve early Guard on this piece? Or is skill quality just that overwhelming?

I find that almost as often as not I end up ignoring doubles, and I f'in hate it, is why I ask. I think most players have most of the best skills for them on their normal lists, and when coaches take doubles, except the rare combo, or linemen with Guard, it's usually a pretty even-up pick against the opportunity cost, or a long-term build pick. Perhaps we don't really need doubles to cost more?

[Hitonagashi]

That's a bit extreme. Most doubles are beneficial to most players.

All elves benefit from doubles far more than normals, all normal linemen do, all big guys do, most catchers do.

It's really just blitzer type positionals that don't (counting pact and beastmen as blitzer type).

[mattgslater]

That's a bit extreme. Most doubles are beneficial to most players.

All elves benefit from doubles far more than normals, all normal linemen do, all big guys do, most catchers do.

It's really just blitzer type positionals that don't (counting pact and beastmen as blitzer type).

It's GS access in general. It's that there's only one power skill that is neither widely accessible nor dependent on spam value for long-term viability.

[Runejack]

Hello thread!

How've you been? Like I posted months ago, the Orcs were taking a season off. Now they're back with a new streamlined look and eager to try some new things. That's how we learn right? Trying new things and making mistakes and then posting about it all. Woohoo!

So here's spOrc after one game in a new season: http://www.brawl.bloodbowlleague.com/de ... p=ro&t=spo
I removed both -ag players as I had a fair bit of treasury and it was the end of the season (I made the playoffs but lost first or second round.) I then decided to drop my second thrower to see how it left me feeling this season. My thoughts were to take my rookie blitzer and possibly make him more of a ball carrier (I'd still give him mighty blow so the other orcs wouldn't pick on him.)

Well, the rookie orc rolled double 1's. Gah! How rude! To Dodge, or not to Dodge ... that is the question! To top it off my killer rolled 6 and 4 so no juggernaut or pro for him! I think 7 move would be quite handy though?

I'm excited to try some of the things discussed here and see how it goes for my team. Thanks as always for the wonderful conversations!

Joel

[MKL]

(...)
My thoughts were to take my rookie blitzer and possibly make him more of a ball carrier (I'd still give him mighty blow so the other orcs wouldn't pick on him.)

Well, the rookie orc rolled double 1's. Gah! How rude! To Dodge, or not to Dodge ... that is the question! To top it off my killer rolled 6 and 4 so no juggernaut or pro for him! I think 7 move would be quite handy though?

I like some mv7 on the blitzers. Thumb up, imo.

About the rookie: if you really want to turn him into a ball carrier, dodge is a fine choice (or not, being the only dodge in the team he will be targeted by tacklers ).
Having you an ag4 blitzer, I would make him into a standard blitzer: Guard (five isn't enough in my book ) or M-Blow to skill faster.

[Smeborg]

Definitely take +MA on the Blitzer. It's outstanding. One of the best Orc team I ever saw had four MA7 Blitzers. It was evil.

All the best.

[Runejack]

I went for the mighty blow on my Orc that rolled doubles. I remember reading on Double Skulls Orc Blog that you should decide early on if you'd take dodge on doubles, and I'd decided no. No other double skill seemed to fit at this point. As it turns out he got a kill and the mvp in my next game so now he can skill up again! ... normal skill. I'll probably go guard. That will give me 2/2 Blitzers with guard, 3/4 Black Orcs with guard, and the guard Troll. Other options would be tackle ... he may end up with this anyway as his next skill or Piling On. I can see this player ending up going Mighty blow (already done), guard, tackle, then stand firm. At the moment I only have one tackler on my team. With the two Blitzers ear-marked for it, I gave one strip ball instead. My one Line Orc has block and is not far from a second skill. He'd most likely get dirty player or tackle although his life would pretty much be sitting on the bench or standing on the scrimmage line.

http://www.brawl.bloodbowlleague.com/de ... p=ro&t=spo

Joel

[MKL]

I agree with the Guard idea.
With only 5 guards you risk of finding a stronger opponent, at 1800tv range.
In my book, Orcs have ensure strength dominance on the field (okay, with that thrower and that ag4 you pack some surprise, nonetheless...)