DreadBall - The Futuristic Sports Game

[Smeborg]

Very very interesting accountings, thanks! Could I convince you to enter your game results in the following "online database"? I'm trying to setup an objective mass of semi-empirical data to track the evolution of game balance...

http://db.chezalex.net/

I know results show some tendancy, but I'm hoping the (very active) community can use this to "adjust" the game over time. Like I said somewhere else, it arguably took 15 years to balance BB...

Perhaps you could add "number of turns" to the stats you collect?

[Smeborg]

Finally a game that went the distance! VM beat OG by 3 points (14 turns). 6 deaths (3 VM Strikers, 1 VM Guard, 2 Gobbos).

The first half saw only 3 Strikes scored (all 2-pointers), with the OG going up 4-0 initially. The VM finally got their Striking game together to claw back a small lead. The OG advantage in numbers stopped the VM running away with the game. At the end, every OG Strike attempt failed, otherwise the game would have been very close, perhaps going to extra time.

A game more or less according to the fluff. OG causing injuries, and VM making lots of Strike attempts, but failing many. I made a "semi-cage" with the OG, it worked well enough (kept the ball for a turn). I also made a strategy error near the end, going for more Slams with the OG, when playing the ball for safety might well have done better. Got a bit carried away seeing 4 dead VM and others in the dugout...

VM have little difficulty playing when down on numbers. They move so fast, they can get anywhere. They don't need Guards all the time, they can Steal the Ball with their Strikers (they do this better than any other team).

Coaching dice were quite important in this game for getting success on low-odds Strike attempts.

6 deaths in a game (nothing untoward, just lots of Slamming and a full-length game) suggests yet again to me that the league system has not been tested. If this had been a league match, the coaches would have got 5 dice of credits (say 17.5 MC on average) to replace 65 MC of players. 11 dead players in the 4 "proper" games I have played so far, or 70 MC of cash on average to replace 143 MC of players.

All the best.

[MattDakka]

6 deaths in a game (nothing untoward, just lots of Slamming and a full-length game) suggests yet again to me that the league system has not been tested. If this had been a league match, the coaches would have got 5 dice of credits (say 17.5 MC on average) to replace 65 MC of players. 11 dead players in the 4 "proper" games I have played so far, or 70 MC of cash on average to replace 143 MC of players.

You can recycle dead players at 5 MC each and an Underdog team can acquire Free Agents (i.e. a sort of BB Journeymen) at 10 MC each with his Underdog bonus (i.e. the difference between the MC values of the 2 teams), though.

[Smeborg]

6 deaths in a game (nothing untoward, just lots of Slamming and a full-length game) suggests yet again to me that the league system has not been tested. If this had been a league match, the coaches would have got 5 dice of credits (say 17.5 MC on average) to replace 65 MC of players. 11 dead players in the 4 "proper" games I have played so far, or 70 MC of cash on average to replace 143 MC of players.

You can recycle dead players at 5 MC each and an Underdog team can acquire Free Agents (i.e. a sort of BB Journeymen) at 10 MC each with his Underdog bonus (i.e. the difference between the MC values of the 2 teams), though.

Good points, thanks Matt, I'd forgotten that. At least that makes it much closer to replacement rates (125 MC to replace 143 MC of players). Still below, though, especially for a team that loses the match and gets 1 die of winnings (out of 4 dead, about 2 could be replaced by rookie players). As I get better at Slamming and Stomping, death rates have the potential to rise further...

Free Agents I have yet to test, MVP auctions I think are unworkable and haven't thought of a way to test them (without starting a league).

[Smeborg]

SOME HIGHER LEVEL CONCEPTS
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The game is a bit different to other games (though I don't want to exaggerate), so I offer some concepts that I am starting to formulate after my week and a bit of contact with DB.

TEMPI
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Perhaps the most useful concept is tempi, a concept which will be familiar to chess players. Much of what you do (beyond the basics of putting points on the board) is done to gain tempi, or to cause your opponent to lose tempi (actions). If you gain a "free action", that is a tempo, if you knock down an opposing player or put one in the dugout, the opposing coach loses a tempo (perhaps 2 tempi). And so on.

2:1 and 4:2
----------------
When you make opposed rolls (e.g. a Slam, or a Steal), you gain most if you double your opponent's successes (the result, in effect, gains you a tempo). So you need to think in terms of gaining a 2:1 or 4:2 dice advantage. If you restrict your opponent to 1 or 2 rolls (through "assists", i.e. additional threat hexes from your other players), you are much more likely to gain that 2:1 or 4:2 advantage. Only a small number of player-types (Orx or FF Guards when Slamming, VM Strikers when Stealing) can consider getting similar odds on their own (and even then without reliability). Of course it takes you a tempo or two make the threat of gaining a tempo or two... A nice balance.

"DOUBLE" MOVES
-----------------------------
Sometimes you can pull off a neat "double move", gaining (in effect) a future tempo. For example, you might be able to position a Striker to a hex (and with the correct facing) where he will be able to receive a Throw (and/or Throw a Strike) in a future turn. Once I managed to do this with a Striker (he was delivering an "assist") where he could attempt to catch the opponent's throw-in (re-launched ball) - and indeed he did so. Or the player may be positioned to where he can deliver an assist in a future turn. And so on. Subtle, but very influential.

BACKGAMMON
------------------------
Not perhaps of practical use, but IMO the most similar game to DB (n terms of the flow of "luck", or dice rolling) is Backgammon. Now Backgammon is a gambling game, which DB is not. But it is usually easy to spot the dominant team, and if well coached, that team ought to win most of the time. But it only takes a turn or too of "good luck" for the underdog to turn all that on its head.

Hope that helps, and all the best.

[MattDakka]

Good points, thanks Matt, I'd forgotten that. At least that makes it much closer to replacement rates (125 MC to replace 143 MC of players). Still below, though, especially for a team that loses the match and gets 1 die of winnings (out of 4 dead, about 2 could be replaced by rookie players). As I get better at Slamming and Stomping, death rates have the potential to rise further...

Thank you for your match reports and the time you spend writing them, they are very interesting in order to know the game and how it actually works .
About the death rates: considering that currently there is no skill cap, high death rates may prevent teams from having too many super players.

Free Agents I have yet to test, MVP auctions I think are unworkable and haven't thought of a way to test them (without starting a league).

Very curious about the Free Agents and their interaction with the FF and Marauder teams, maybe they could mitigate the teams' weaknesses.
If you can, please play some matches featuring Free Agents and the mentioned teams.

[Smeborg]

Matt -

Death rates: I think this will change as Guards skill up and become relatively invulnerable (Strength, Speed and Armour of 3+, Grizzled, Can't Feel a Thing). The Strikers will continue to die, though. Rookie teams will get slaughtered, surely, by experienced ones. Playing with Free Agents and MVPs only is an option, I suppose. But your team would gain no experience. Perhaps you could substitute cards and coaching dice for experience. Once an overdog has a superabundance of money, his players cannot die.

MVPs and Free Agents: the whole system looks unworkable to me. At high levels, a team will be worth many hundreds of points. Once a team is ultra-advanced, its players will be better than the MVPs. All the underdog gets to buy is Free Agents and MVPs (to a maximum of 14 minus the number of players on his roster). That's it. So I repeat my observation that the experience system can only work for short leagues and tourneys. For anything longer, this section of the rules needs a complete re-write.

I'm planning to play a mini-league of the 4 races to see what happens with the experience system, death rates, money, underdog etc. But it will be at least a couple of days before I start. First I am going to have to find a way to cost the MVPs. And how to simulate an auction???

All the best.

[Smeborg]

TEAM NAMES
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Thought of these while lying in bed this morning.

HUMIES
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Tampa Slambax
Corporate Raiders
South City Slickers

ORX & GOBBOS
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Bash'n'Dash (hat tip to my friend Jim's Ogres)
Brain Drain
Asteroid Belt Academicals (every player a PhD)
Pest Control
Rush of Blood

VEER-MYN
-----------------
Toxic Breath
Squealing Squeakers (hat tip to my son's Skaven)
Skweeky Kleen (corporate sponsor)
Wacky Molers

FORGE FATHERS
---------------------------
Stomper Battery (stamper battery = rock crushing machine in old mines, of which we have lots here)
Motherlode Mob
Playdirt
Masked Manglers
Jackhammers
Pickaxe Handlers
Guard Force
Shortshot Slammers

Enough for now. Would be easier if there were proper fluff (especially place names). All the best.

[Smeborg]

DEATH LEAGUE 3,OOO
---------------------
I'm down in Queenstown for the cricket, and mighty fine cricket it was (a young Kiwi XI beat a nearly full strength England XI by 3 wickets with 8 balls to spare on the 4th day).

In between watching the cricket and walking the dog, I managed to play some DB. Since the dog is not up to speed with DB yet, I had to play against myself again. It was a straight 4-way mash between:

The Tampa Slambax (Hu)
The Asteroid Belt Academicals (OG) - every player a PhD
Toxic Breath (VM)
Stomper Battery (FF)

I played a full round of home and away matches, i.e. 12 matches in all, with each team playing 6 matches (home and away against each other team). I made some mistakes with money, otherwise I think I gave the experience system a good workout in a short format. I'll post the results and stats in separate posts.

[Smeborg]

DEATH LEAGUE 3,000 MATCH RESULTS
-------------------------------------
Breath beat Academicals in 7 turns (deaths inflicted: 0-1)
Stompers beat Slambax in 5.5 turns (0-0)
Stompers beat Academicals in 6.5 turns (0-2)
Slambax beat Breath in 8 turns (0-1)
Slambax beat Academicals in 10.5 turns (0-3)
Breath beat Stompers in 4.5 turns (1-0)

As can be seen, 3 teams had a rock/paper/scissors thing going (FF beat Hu, Hu beat VM, VM beat FF), while everyone beat Orx & Gobbos. This all changed in the second round, however. 2 of the Gobbos graduated summa cum laude from the Asteroid Belt Academy and gained +3 Skill, to make their team actually capable of winning matches. Their only loss in the second half was by the narrowest of margins. Unfortunately one of these Gobbos died in the last match (otherwise Gobbos seem to narrowly survive most of the time).

Academicals beat Breath in 9 turns (deaths inflicted: 0-0)
Slambax beat Stompers in 8.5 turns (0-1)
Academicals beat Stompers in 10.5 turns (2-0)
Breath beat Slambax by 4 in 14 turns (0-1)
Slambax beat Academicals by 1 in 14 turns (1-0)
Breath beat Stompers in 12 turns (2-1)

[Smeborg]

DEATH LEAGUE 3,000 FINAL STANDINGS
--------------------------------------
Tampa Slambax (Hu) 12 points (+11), deaths 3-5
Toxic Breath (VM) 11 points (+11), deaths 3-4
Asteroid Belt Academicals (OG) 7 points, deaths 8-2
Stomper Battery (FF) 6 points, deaths 3-6

These results are broadly in line with the expectations set by my earlier more casual matches. Humans and Veer-Myn are most likely to win matches, Orcs inflict the most pain, and Forge Fathers go squish.

[Smeborg]

DEATH LEAGUE 3,000 - OTHER STATS
------------------------------------
The most interesting is skills retained (lost) and experience points retained (lost):

Humans: 3 (0) and 9 (1)
Veer-Myn: 6 (1) and 16 (2)
Orx & Gobbos: 8 (1) and 26 (2)
Forge Fathers: 3 (0) and 10 (3)

There is a huge disparity here. Orx Guards gain massive experience points (and skills) compared to other Guards (they have greater range than FF Guards, Gobbos are great for giving assists. Meanwhile, Veer-Myn Strikers skill up quicker than other Strikers (their high MA and 3+ Speed means they make more 3 and 4-point Strike attempts).

Humans and Forge Fathers skill up slowly, compounded by playing some of the time with Free Agents (who took experience that might have gone to rostered players).

The dead: 4 Humans (G,J,S,S), 3 Veer-Myn (G,S,S), 2 Orx & Gobbos (J,J), 4 Forge Fathers (G,S,S,S), 4 Free Agents. Mere confirmation that FF Strikers are the squishiest player-type in the game.

Home and Away: a slight advantage to Home (20 to 16), as you might expect (home team gets first chance to Slam and first chance to score). Both 14-turn games were won by the away team.

[Smeborg]

GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE FIRST MINI-LEAGUE
-----------------------------------------------
I made some mistakes with money, but not huge ones. Team growth is slow, 2 teams finished with 8 players, 2 with 9 players. 3 dice were bought, too. Underdog money (winnings) bonus seems to work adequately once the league is under way and there are disparities in team rating.

I made 2 adjustments to the rules: (a) I introduced a "petty cash" system, to avoid saved money increasing team rating, and (b) I priced MVPs (Star Players) as though they were normal players with advances (base price + 5 points per advance + specials). I never fielded an MVP, there was never quite enough difference in team rating, but I did field up to 3 Free Agents (they are a bit random, you can get an Orx Guard or a Human Jack, I wonder which is better...).

Experience rolls are highly randomised, some are close to useless on certain player-types, some are outstanding. +3 Skill checks for 2 Gobbos was significant enough to be a structural element of the league. None of the Guards got "Strength", allowing the Orx Guards to continue their domination. 5 Orx Guards gained 21 experience points between them in 6 games. One rookie gained 4 in his first match. Once Guards get "Keeper" or "Can't Feel a Thing", they are very difficult to kill (never happened) or to put in the dugout.

While there are implied imbalances at higher levels (especially the accumulation of experience by Orx Guards, and to a lesser extent by Veer-Myn Strikers), I think the league rules are very playable in a short format, with only 1 or 2 tweaks (as said before, I think the auction system is completely unworkable).

The end of turn sequence can be complicated, and it is easy to forget something. A table would be nice. The post-match sequence seems even more complicated than BB, especially the rules around experience steps and dead players. I suspect it would be easier to have a match result sheet, and to only amend your roster once the match is finished.

It seems every aspect of the game is highly randomised compared with BB. This applies to the experience system as well. People are either going to love it or hate it.

I lost my ball. Hardly surprising, it is a tiny piece of grey plastic sh!te. Only one in the set!

All the best.

[Chris]

I believe there is supposed to be 2 in the set?

[Smeborg]

I believe there is supposed to be 2 in the set?

Only one in mine.