Piling On and it's possible changes

[Balrog]

OK, in 3rd ed. so we had this skill called Piling On which was a good and balanced skill, then it was changed so that it's use could be declared after the armour roll, and a big stink was made about how much better the skill had become, and that it no longer made any sense.

The Piling On crusade has taken some steam and now many people with influence agree (or tend to agree) that perhaps it is too good now, so the rumour is that to balance it, it will become a trait... WTF!!??

I don't understand the reasoning behind this at all. We don't want Piling On to become a trait, we want it to go back to being declared before the armour roll! That's what the whole PO crusade was about!!!

When you start with something good then change it, the way to fix it isn't to change it again, but rather to put it back the way it was. New Coke figured it out...

Argh!!! I get so mad about this if I think about too long...

-Balrog

[Cervidal]

The swing in power does not come from the change in when you use the skill, though it does make the skill much more useful.

What truly makes the skill unbalanced is the opposing coach's lack of ability to tear into the guy while he is prone on the ground. There is no reciprocated hit like there was in the previous edition.

[Balrog]

The swing in power does not come from the change in when you use the skill, though it does make the skill much more useful.

What truly makes the skill unbalanced is the opposing coach's lack of ability to tear into the guy while he is prone on the ground. There is no reciprocated hit like there was in the previous edition.

I'm not sure I follow you here, what reciprocating hit? You can still foul the guy, if that's what you mean.

-Balrog

[Munkey]

You can still foul but with IGMEOY you are much more likely to be sent off.

Also under the current rules Dirty Players are much less common and these are the most effective way to ensure the fouled player stays off the pitch for a while.

[Cervidal]

Like he said above.

My Piling On player can potentially use his skill 16 turns per game. That's my goal with my Saurus Piling On player in the OBL, even if I have to blitz every turn with him to use it. Tack this skill onto a Norse Blitzer, or any other player with Jump Up, he can use this skill every single turn with ease.

How can you counter that? You really can't, under the current fouling rules because of the stiff penalty IGMEOY brings to the table. I have all the incentive in the world to have four players on the pitch with Piling On, but I will never put more than one Dirty Player on the pitch at a time.

[Colin]

Put PO back to declare before AV roll and have a IGMEOY roll for it as well. Before people get all upset about that, just think about it. PO is the only time you can attack a player that is down and not have to worry about being sent off. You can see for consistancy sake this idea makes sense. Big deal that the attacker is prone as well, you all have stated that this is no real drawback as fouling has been cut back. Even if you keep the declaration after the armour roll, a ref roll needs to be added. People tend to get hung up on semantics, and will whine about the fact that only 'fouling' a player that is down gets a IGMEOY roll. Just change the termanology to 'dirty plays' not fouling. Dirty plays include fouling with or without the dirty player skill and Piling On. How hard is that?

[Bevan]

Put PO back to declare before AV roll and have a IGMEOY roll for it as well.

You may not need to have a ref roll after Piling On as long as the ref had his eye on the Piling On team. So the team that had been "piled on" would always be able to foul without the ref watching them.

There may still be a lack of Dirty Players since this is no longer a route to quick advancement but it would put the PO player at greater risk than 1 foul per half.

[Balrog]

You don't need to move the IGMEOY counter, PO declared before the die roll is enough (well, according to my league's experiece anyways).

-Balrog

[Zombie]

You can still foul but with IGMEOY you are much more likely to be sent off.

Also under the current rules Dirty Players are much less common and these are the most effective way to ensure the fouled player stays off the pitch for a while.

Against a piling on player, it's still a good move to foul even with the ref watching. If you don't have a dirty player yet, get one ASAP, they still rule. And with the old version of piling on, you're going down much more often. With the old rule, a ST5 player with piling on goes down 80% more often against AV7, 56% more often against AV8 and 50% more often against AV9. If he's prepared to use mighty blow instead of piling on to avoid going down, those numbers are even higher (157%, 100% and 80%). That's a lot more chances to foul him and it brings the skill down in power a lot! Not to mention that when he's down, he's much less effective for a while.

In my league, we use the old piling on and have zero problem with its power level. It's perfectly balanced. In fact it's usually not as good as mighty blow!

[Zombie]

You don't need to move the IGMEOY counter, PO declared before the die roll is enough (well, according to my league's experiece anyways).

Yeah, i think those who argue otherwise haven't tried this yet. They're impressed with the level of power that piling on has in their leagues and want to bring it down A LOT so they're sure it's not overpowered (see pendulum effect). Those like you and i who've kept the old piling on all along know that it's prefectly fine that way and that nothing else needs to be done to it. We know it through hundreds of games of playtesting.

[Balrog]

Those like you and i who've kept the old piling on all along know that it's prefectly fine that way and that nothing else needs to be done to it. We know it through hundreds of games of playtesting.

That is so true, amen brother.

-Balrog

[DoubleSkulls]

A friend of mine (Haggislad) suggested just making PO a foul. Leave it after the Av roll, but you've got at least a 1/6 chance of getting sent off and can't PO every turn a half if your opponent doesn't foul/PO back.

Quite a neat solution really but probably a little too harsh on PO.

[GalakStarscraper]

Those like you and i who've kept the old piling on all along know that it's prefectly fine that way and that nothing else needs to be done to it. We know it through hundreds of games of playtesting.

I agree with Zombie and Balrog. Just the fact that the player goes prone to use the skill always is a major improvement.

Zombie quoted a number but take Cervidal Saurus with Piling On against and AV 8 team.

Current rule:
Saurus only goes prone on rolls of 5, 6, 7, and 8 ... or 55% of the time.

If you change the rule back to Before the AV, he has to go prone 100% of the time.

And contrary to Cervidal's argument ... a Piling On player who doesn't go prone has decent odds of being able to rinse and repeat without standing up and burning the Blitz. IE that extra 45% matters.

Although it was argued that this wasn't a big deal, playtesting has proved that it is. The new version of Piling On has caused us for the MBBL to give the Khemri team Foul Appearance instead of Mighty Blow as a starting skill (which I love as a change personally anyway) ... but this change was driven by Mighty Blow as the mix of Piling On after and Mighty Blow was too strong ... (Khemri team was averageing 4.25 casualties per a game in the MBBL).

So based on what I've seen ... I agree just change Piling On back to before the armour roll based on power levels.

But while I'm at it ... for the same reason ... power levels ... leave Diving Tackle after the dice rolls. Before the dice roll, this skill sucks powerwise ... after it a decent skill that I'll actually give players on my team. I would never give a player before the dice roll Diving Tackle ... too much risk for not enough gain.

Galak

[Zombie]

Like i said before, we play with the 4th ed diving tackle (i.e. declare before the roll), and i would gladly give it to amazon catchers as a 3rd skill (after block and side step), to a troll, ogre or kroxigor on a double and to a wardancer as a 2nd skill (after side step). There are many other players who could really use it, too many in fact to list here.

It's still very good since it can cause turnovers. I think that this skill is very underrated right now. It's worth a lot more than people give it credit for.

[Balrog]

As for DT before the armour roll, I agree with Zombie that it's still a good skill, but it is made much better when used after the roll.

My league we use before the roll, but if a DT player causes a casualty he gets the SPPs (essentially it's a cas caused by a 'football' action). So far though I can't say if this is balanced or not, as only one player has ever taken DT.

-Balrog