Slann development question

[Smurf]

Wrestle means you can get more players down. This means more movement through gaps and it also upsets players with block. Also a player has to decide to reroll before you use wrestle.

Both down, no block but opponent has wrestle, does the player risk a turn over hoping that you use wrestle or both down ending the turn risking injury. Therefore, the player has to decide to reroll before the result is applied.

[Darkson]

I'm not questioning the wisdom of wrestle, I'm questioning the wisdom of wrestle on the Guarders.

[Smurf]

I'm not questioning the wisdom of wrestle, I'm questioning the wisdom of wrestle on the Guarders.

2nd best choice. Not perfect but if you want a mass wrestle it's got to be done. Usually skill allows for the player to be hit by whoever is next to the player.

[mattgslater]

Put me in the Block-after-Guard camp. Wrestle/Guard is fine when Wrestle comes first and Guard is a double.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys, for all your comments. Much appreciated.

[Smeborg]

A few thoughts by way of background.

Slann are the most Wrestle-friendly of all teams, I think. Since (the way I play them, at least) Slann pose a generalised threat (Wrestle+Leap all over the field) rather than a surgical one (e.g. 2 Wardancers, 2 Witch Elves, 2 Werewolves), the team seems to increase in potency the more Wrestle that it has on the ST3 players. With up to 7 Wrestlers on the team, Wrestle starts to play a role in the opponent's turn (which is barely noticeable when you have, say, 2 Wrestlers).

Slann are also a Fend-friendly team, I suggest. Other things being equal, I plan on giving Fend to the Catchers as a late skill (4th), to 4 Linefrogs as their 3rd skill, and to LoSers as their second skill. Wrestle+Fend is a pleasant combo on a team which likes to pick its fights, staying out of contact when it chooses. Like other combos (e.g. Blodge), Wrestle+Fend gains in potency the more players that have it.

I am more used to Guard on the Catchers (both in leagues, and in tournaments allowing doubles), but I have been surprised at the effectiveness of 2 Guard Linefrogs. With 14 players taking Guard on their first doubles roll, the team is likely to end up with quite a few Guarders. This also allows me to dispense with the expensive Blitzers.

I can't think of any other team on which I would plan to take Wrestle+Guard. As stated above, I think Slann are the sole exception.

If I roll a doubles on a Linefrog who already has Wrestle, I plan to take Guard.

Hope that helps.

[Ullis]

Smeborg, can you put down in words why you think Guard is valuable then? Why not take Dodge instead? You're already taking it as a first skill on all catchers.

[mattgslater]

'Cause it's a Guard world, and Dodge is only livin' in it.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg, can you put down in words why you think Guard is valuable then? Why not take Dodge instead? You're already taking it as a first skill on all catchers.

I have learned this from experience, starting with Guard on a Catcher in a short league, followed by 2 Guard Catchers in 2 tournaments, followed by 1 then 2 Guards on Linefrogs in the current league under discussion. So I would not say that I think Guard is valuable, I would say rather that I know Guard is valuable. Or to put it another way, perhaps I am trying to convince you by example, rather than by words. But I will try my best in words:

Slann, like most teams, like to block a lot when they can, although unlike most teams, they block solely for possession and position, with CAS as a windfall bonus (at least that's the way I play them). Guard is an inestimable help with this. A minor point: in my experience and system, all Slann players can be quite useful (on defense especially) when prone. While I don't often leave them prone on purpose (i do so sometimes, especially against bash teams), it's not uncommon to have 1 or 2 players recovering from a stun, and therefore exerting a strong influence on play (due mainly to their Leap, but also to their potential quiet tackle zone from just standing up - the more so in both instances with Guard and/or Wrestle of course).

Guard+Leap is invaluable when you are trying to gain possession of the ball. It's best of course on a Catcher, but it can be nearly as good on a Linefrog (one typical situation is when you need to convert an uphill Blitz into a 1-die Blitz). But the Guard (often in strange places because of Leap) also has a strong influence during the opponent's turn. He cannot block where he wants too, or at least not in the order he would like to take.

Taking Guard on the Linefrogs is the common doubles choice among Slann coaches, AFAIK. The only innovations I have made are (a) not taking Blitzers or the Krox (a decision based on my experiences with them), and (b) combining Guard+Wrestle (which I have yet to do, hence my OP). I am not alone in (a), at least one brave coach in Oz tried it in a progression tourney (CanCon) with mixed success.

Dodge is my choice for second doubles roll on the Linefrogs. I have not experimented with taking it as first choice.

I like the generalised threat posed by lots of Wrestle. I have even dreamt about taking Wrestle on all players (i.e. Catchers too), but that experiment is a bit extreme even for me at this stage (and Catchers seem to have greater value when remaining standing, especially if they are in Receiver position, or within reach of the End Zone). It would be interesting, though.

Hope that helps and all the best.

[Shteve0]

'Cause it's a Guard world, and Dodge is only livin' in it.

Surely: this is a Slann's world, but it is nothing - nothing! - without wrestle on it.

[Kikurasis]

To answer your first question: no, a lack of Tackle will not hurt your team. imho, Tackle is to take down a person with a chance to hurt them. Wrestle is just as good at taking the opponent players down, just you aren't going to hurt them as often. With Strip Ball/Wrestle, you have a 5/6 chance of taking the ball away on a 1-die hit (assuming no Sure Hands, of course ). With Tackle, it doesn't stack with Strip Ball, so since your goal is to get a hold of the ball and not hurt the opponent with Slann, you don't need it.

I've been playing them for a season, so I'm no expert with the team I play, but I started the same as you (12 games ago now), with 7 linefrogs and 4 catchers. The first thing I added was the Krox, then slowly the blitzers (well, one catcher needed replacing before the fourth blitzer was bought just after last game). I had thought the blitzers were going to be TR bloat, but they are honestly worth their weight in gold. As a rookie, they can mark very well, and that's huge for the team's tactics of trying to weaken the screen/cage in order to get more into it to grab the ball.

I really don't think Tackle is needed at all (as I play the same as you -- casualties are just icing for taking someone down).

As for the Guard/Wrestle, I'd go with Block on the ones that get Guard first. But, a Wrestler that gets doubles would absolutely take Guard, so if it works for you, I can see going Wrestle/Guard.

[Smeborg]

Thank you, Kikurasis, the first person to answer my original question!

[Smeborg]

Kikurasis - your team is very interesting, not least because it is very different to mine. Your underlying TV (i.e. before skills and FF) is 32 higher than what I plan. This is a rather large difference. Do you struggle with your high TV, or is there something in your environment that makes high TV appealing (e.g. house rules, or a fashion for everyone to play with high TV teams, or whatever)?

All the best.

[Shteve0]

Thank you, Kikurasis, the first person to answer my original question!

Double apologies from me, Smeborg; first for derailing your thread, secondly for doing so rehashing exactly the same question I put to you in your first thread on your team, here.

I can see the logic Kikurasis is putting forward, in that the 5/6 with a wrestle/S-ball player works very efficiently against those without S-hands; against an opponent with S-hands your chances falls to 2/6, while that reducing to 1/6 is only likely to come up against Amazon, Undead and Necro players (the only teams I can think of where sure hands will be a reliable early pick for players that start with dodge).

[Kikurasis]

Kikurasis - your team is very interesting, not least because it is very different to mine. Your underlying TV (i.e. before skills and FF) is 32 higher than what I plan. This is a rather large difference. Do you struggle with your high TV, or is there something in your environment that makes high TV appealing (e.g. house rules, or a fashion for everyone to play with high TV teams, or whatever)?

The league is plain vanilla, except for the bounties and side betting allowed. And, a few rewards at the end of the season. But nothing house ruled for in-game play. In-game, everything goes (i.e.: cards are allowed, etc.) for optional rules in the rule book, as well.

My original target with the team was to have the linefrogs eventually die off and get replaced with blitzers, so the I ended up with the 9 positionals, along with ~4 linefrogs at any one time. However, the special advancements I've gotten with the one catcher and the two linefrogs (+ST and +AG/Guard) means that I need to either put blitzers on the line, or carry some less important linefrogs to put there. As the team is still pretty low on skills, I've decided to go with a couple of extra guys (with Dirty Player) that will be guarenteed to get off the field one way or another -- hopefully taking someone with them.

Having done a little research on them before starting them, I knew their sweet spot for TR was going to be around 200-210, assuming I took the full positionals and skilled them. (That amount accounts for turnover, given the likeliness of injuries putting yourself into cages. ) I don't mind giving away inducements, as the skills are worth it, plus most experienced teams are 180+ for TR.

I guess it comes down to how comfortable you are with inducements against you. On this team, none of them against me have hurt very badly, while most players have taken beneficial ones (babes, apoths, RRs, etc.) that help them out. Has it caused the games to be close? Yes, that's the goal of inducements. Have they caused me additional pain and made my team collapse on itself? Not yet. Most I gave up was 670k, and it made it close, but having the players to do the job the team is good at (AG4 Guard, ST3/AG4 Wrestler, etc.) makes it really hard to stop you breaking the cage/screen.

If I were to give any piece of advice I've learned playing these guys, it'd be to get at least two AG4 Guard pieces and one AG4 Wrestle/Strip Ball player. Leaping on 2+, with two players is pretty safe (with team RRs), such that getting the ball loose is a breeze.

It's a really fun team (plan on going to Chaos Cup with them) and even when the dice are bad, the team can surprise you. You only need one turn to go well to turn things around with these guys.