Slann development question

[Hitonagashi]

Nice posts Smeborg.

Have you played that uber elf team you were talking about in the OP yet?

My initial feeling is that against the bashers, you don't need tackle (and it's a waste of TV compared to Fend).

Against lower TV elves, your mass wrestle should more than make up for no tackle.

The problem is, against high TV elf teams, they can out "slann" you. They are faster, more mobile (ag 4 dodge > ag 3 leap), will have a similar amount of guard, have more blodge. I think this is where your blitzers really shine. You don't need them, and they are hinderance against bash teams, but having a dt/ss blitzer, or a tackle (mb/po) blitzer is really useful for dealing with high TV elves.

In my experience (from the elf side of the game), it's to the benefit of the elves to make it a score fest against slann. High TV Elf LOS is more durable (due to the addition of dodge), and slann find it very difficult to prevent an elf offense without blitzers.

[mattgslater]

How much Tackle to take is more a function of league culture than of your own team development. These days I play in NCBB (speed-heavy league with short seasons), NBFL (very high value league), FUMBBL Ranked, and a small pickup tabletop league with a number of TT/Cyanide coaches. I don't do Slann, but I'm a big fan of 6/3/3/8 profiles, that's my kind of game. Here's where I am on Tackle from format to format.

NCBB: Too many elves. Strip is ubiquitous, and therefore so is Sure Hands. Tackle is a very high priority if you want to get yourself that ball. Slann don't have time to develop much Tackle, but just one and a lot of Wrestle is very nice.
NBFL: So much value that it would be silly not to take some Tackle (at very high TV, the ability to deal a little targeted damage is important), but 2-3 is plenty, and I've run the whole season with Zons on one Tackle (expansion team, sigh) and a ton of Wrestle, with not too much trouble. My Strip player won me a game, died, and hasn't been replaced (she would have won all the same with Tackle instead: blitzed a camping Dodge player and pow/pushed him to scoop: Tackle would have been even better).
Ranked: Speed teams tend to avoid me, no matter what I'm playing, except for rooks and legends. That said I kind of struggle vs. speed teams. I'm kind of a picker-picker: cherrypickers greenlight my Humans with their ST teams if they don't know who I am and think I'm gonna go all speed on them. I do fine with two Tackles at high value and 0-1 at low. Wrestle/Strip works pretty well in Ranked for sacking the ball (it's not for me, but it works), Tackle is for dropping hits. Elf teams need 2-3 Tackle to handle their Ranked opposition mix, unless you're like me and like to bash into bash with High Elves.
Tabletop: I take Frenzy instead, and I go all surf-o-rama on my friends. They hate it. That or I play Halflings, and Tackle just isn't an option. I keep telling them to join FUMBBL and learn how to fight back, but they all have their excuses (mostly having to do with being unable to run the client on their computers, or not having regular access to a computer they can game on).

I know Smeborg is not really into Slann Blitzers, but having played Happygrue and watched him run a few Slann teams I've really grown to respect the Blitzer in non-matching formats. Rookie Blitzers are a bad bargain, but there are so many ways to build them, and it's not hard to get them skilled. Diving Tackle and Jump Up just combo so nicely with each other, and with so many other GAS skills, that if you can keep them alive they'll drive your opponents crazy.

Do remember though, Wrestle doesn't just deny you the AV roll, it denies you a zone on the ball, and on the erstwhile carrier. Strip allows your opponent a zone on the ball, while Tackle (when it works) denies it.

I get the power of Fend, but what I find is that Fend players die a LOT more than the same players without Fend. I guess I have a mentality of "if you got it, use it" and using Fend means doing stuff that leads to injury rolls. My NBFL Zons have decided to forgo Fend almost entirely (#4 skill for lucky linas, and maybe #4 (maybe not) for my B/G/SS Catcher @ 45 SPP), and so far I'm not in the tiniest little bit sorry. Slann, I can see how that's ever so slightly different, because you can't use Guard as anti-POMB, though Zons are very susceptible to Frenzy and T-POMB (and I have only 5 Guards anyway, one of whom is POMBing 3-4 times a match), and nevertheless I am better off without it. This might be a matter of personal tendencies, but I'm not sure: I love me some Side Step, but FUMBBL has bled all the Stand Firm and Fend out of me, taught me that my aggro playstyle leaves me no room for anything but smackdown (and Guard, lots of Guard, can't have enough).

[huff]

What kind of format are you playing in that you don't want to take the blitzers? Is it TV match-making where you want to keep your TV low and not have to face those built up slayer teams?

Blitzers are very fine pieces, but like the other Slann players: just not out the box. Just think if you give them guard after wrestle (no complaints from me on this, spam the wrestle to make all players a threat on D) then you would have a line frog with JU (goes great with wrestle) and Diving Tackle (great skill) and +1 movement for 40 TV.. Add in dodge late (if you would take it on a line-o), then you get +1 MA, JU & DT for 30 tv.. Quite a bargain, especially if you would even consider taking the 6+4 MA on a line frog (which I wouldn't).

Don't know why all the hate on the blitzers on perpetual formats, although I can see it for tourneys because they do lack out the box.

Id say that they can do well without tackle but it is not ideal. And I'd say 1-2 tackle after wrestle on line frogs.. Especially tackle after the one that has strip.

BTW.. Come to fumbbl smeborg

[Smeborg]

Have you played that uber elf team you were talking about in the OP yet?

No, and he just got a 3rd Strength increase to go with the 2 Agility increases.

It's probably in my interest to play him sooner rather than later, as the +ST players will be seriously unpleasant with Blodge. One is a Blitzer, so he's only 1 skill away from Blodge/S-Step/ST4.

I'm also hoping for a decent TV advantage when the time comes, enough say for a Wizard at least.

But the league leader at the moment is Khemri(!). At least that's less embarrassing than Gobbos, who were the leaders until last week.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I know Smeborg is not really into Slann Blitzers,..

I think they are "good" players in isolation, I don't dislike them, but let me explain why I don't take them any more. This is partly taste and partly environment.

I tend to play in short leagues (say 20 games max). I like to start with 5 RR, 4 Catchers, 7 Linos. This leaves no room for Blitzers, who come late to the party.

I find the Blitzers hard to skill up, the Catchers hog the TDs.

Whenever I have played with Blitzers, they have suffered disproportionately high CAS (deaths and permanent injuries). I think this is because they are popular targets. The Catchers can cope with player turnover, because they earn so many SPPs, but I find the Blitzers can't.

With the need to give TDs to the Blitzers, 2 problems arise. Firstly, results are put at risk (3+ Catch instead of 2+, often without RR). Secondly, the Linos are indirectly deprived of SPPs.

Linos are good at 1 or 2 skills, the Blitzers seem to want more (say 3 or 4) before they seem to be fulfilling their destiny. This is hard to get to in my environments.

I find the Linos to be excellent value (Lino + RR = Blitzer).

I like low TV, and have done so even in 3rd Ed. I hate facing middle level inducements such as the Wizard (whereas I love having one myself).

As stated elsewhere, the Blitzers, like the Krox, are impliedly built for staying in contact as much as possible, whereas I play Slann in a different way, choosing when to stay in or out of contact.

Lastly, taking no Blitzers works well in tourneys. I like to try out in leagues what works well in tourneys. So far the experiment seems to be working well.

Hope that helps and maybe answers huff's questions too.

[Smeborg]

Thanks everybody for a most constructive and interesting thread so far. I played an unexpected game last night to solve scheduling problems, and had a good 3-1 win against Chaos, although I suffered a permanent injury on a Catcher (Apoth failed). Unlike his first game, when he spent 14 or 15 turns in the CAS bin, the Wrestle+S-Ball Linefrog was a star, twice popping the ball loose from the arms of a Chaos Warrior with Block (both times on an uphill block). This was at a time when the result was in serious doubt, and I had 4 players sent to the dugout. Here is the team now (skills I propose to take in bold):

Catcher: +AG, Dodge, Guard (33 SPPs)
Catcher: Dodge, Block(18) -1AV, MNG
Catcher: Dodge (10)
Catcher: Dodge (10)
Linefrog: Wrestle, S-Ball (17)
Linefrog: Guard, Wrestle (16)
Linefrog: Wrestle (10)
Linefrog: Guard (7)
Linefrog: Wrestle (7)
5 Rookie Linefrogs (0)
5 RR/5 FF/1AC/1CL/Apoth

Note that the team is complete now.

3 things happened to help convince me to take Guard+Wrestle (in lieu of the more conventional Guard+Block). Firstly, there were very many instances (a dozen or more) when the Chaos team (who had 7 Block players) knocked down my rookie and Guard Linefrogs with a both down result. Several of these were on the Guard players. Often it was a Chaos Warrior doing the blocking. Wrestle would have produced a better outcome for me, I believe, than Block in all instances. Secondly, I had to leave a Guard Linefrog in contact in order to breach the second line at the set piece. This was one of the times when the return block got a both down result. Lastly, I twice placed a Guard Linefrog in the centre of the LoS on offense, in order to deliver his Guard assist. Near the end of the turn, he would take his block (this will be 1 or 2 dice, depending on the ST of the opponent). While these blocks went well in the game, it occurs to me that on a both down result, Wrestle would be better than Block (which tends to invite a return block). This is a very standard formation.

While I am not 100% sure, I think I will take Guard on the 33 SP Catcher, although Guard gains little benefit from AG5. It seems to fit the logic of my team build. I confess I am sorely tempted by Pass, though (he is the team Thrower). But I think I just need to max out on Guard, on the basis that Guarders will surely die sooner or later. Also this would be my first Guard able to leap on a 2+. I wonder what other doubles options might suggest themselves.

Block on the crippled Catcher seems orthodox and obvious, my only question is whether to retire him. I guess not, I'll wait for the 2nd injury before doing that. I'll also re-consider when the 3rd and 4th Catchers get to their second skill. He is in a jinxed jersey, he got -1AV when he was on 5 SPPs, I fired and re-bought him then.

The team is developing nicely, 2 Catchers are each only 2 TDs away from their second skill, I can feed 2 MVPs to the second Guarder to get him to 17 SPPs. Good SPP efficiency for now.

Comments most welcome.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Short formats, that explains it. The only short format I play in where I'd consider Blitzers on a Slann team is NCBB, where Diving Tackle comes at a premium and graduated Slann Blitzers can easily become NBFL superstars.

AG3 teams without a lot of Block and Guard do like Wrestle. Frees you up. I guess this is also true of Fend: I'd probably like it more if I weren't so aggressive in my approach to blocking.

[Smeborg]

Matt - I like Wrestle+Fend, I first used the combo on my Nurgle team. Unlike Block (or F-App), which invites a no-result block, Wrestle and Fend invite the blocker to voluntarily weaken his position (not unlike S-Step).

All the best.

[huff]

I just started another Slann team on Fumbbl after not playing with them for a year, forgot how fun they are. Had an incredible first game.. Just wish the website wasnt down, this post really makes me want to play with them right now.

[Sandwich]

Block on the crippled Catcher seems orthodox and obvious, my only question is whether to retire him. I guess not, I'll wait for the 2nd injury before doing that. I'll also re-consider when the 3rd and 4th Catchers get to their second skill. He is in a jinxed jersey, he got -1AV when he was on 5 SPPs, I fired and re-bought him then.

He's MNG, so gives you a game to decide. If you get the cash to replace him, then do - I find the catchers really don't seem to survive that long, and -AV is just asking for more trouble. Maybe give him a different number - you've got players so should have a couple spare

[Hitonagashi]

I find the Blitzers hard to skill up, the Catchers hog the TDs.

This is on FUMBBL why people play with 'no catcher' rosters until the Blitzers are skilled up. It's not because it's more efficient, but it is more efficient at skilling them and getting a good base for the team . Once you've skilled the blitzers you can add the catchers later.

Also, with your team, have you considered Nerves of Steel or Pass for the double on the +AG catcher? It makes him an excellent retriever, with the 2+ bounce in, and then an AG 5 pass out.

[huff]

This is on FUMBBL why people play with 'no catcher' rosters until the Blitzers are skilled up. It's not because it's more efficient, but it is more efficient at skilling them and getting a good base for the team . Once you've skilled the blitzers you can add the catchers later.

I get the logic behind this in theory but I don't agree with it. If you want to make things harder on yourself and score with the Blitzer by any-means then you can just start the drive with them picking up the ball (since you would without starting with the catchers anyways) and still have the catchers for those crucial 2+ leaps. And farming Tds most often happens when the game (or at least the drive) is all but decided. I understand for Slann like other agile teams this is more of you can score the quick defensive TD to decide the drive not the traditional stalling at the goal line to decide the drive where farming is easier for the bash teams when they removed much of the opposition. But still, if you can run up the score which the catchers enable you to do, it creates more opportunities for your Blitzer to get those crucial first 2 Tds.

If you can control where your MVPs go like Smeeborg can in his league then I don't really see any reason not starting with the blitzers, getting Tds at that point for them is just icing.

[mattgslater]

With Pact, I really like running an elf so I can comp to him in garbage time, after I've taken a game over. Is there a parallel here?

[huff]

With Pact, I really like running an elf so I can comp to him in garbage time, after I've taken a game over. Is there a parallel here?

Very much.. Just a lil riskier cuz the 3+. Prolly wanna do the HandOff and not the pass.

[mattgslater]

With Pact, I really like running an elf so I can comp to him in garbage time, after I've taken a game over. Is there a parallel here?

Very much.. Just a lil riskier cuz the 3+. Prolly wanna do the HandOff and not the pass.

That's why I asked about parallels to elf (Catcher), and why I specified garbage time (SPP pass). Handoffs get you nothing except the ball to the right guy.