DreadBall - The Futuristic Sports Game

[Smeborg]

I am now firmly convinced that THE JUDWAN ARE "BROKEN". I am also able to describe precisely why.

Because of the skill "Misdirect" (allowing the player to take the "Feint" Action), Judwan behave as both Strikers and pseudo-Guards. This violates the most important design constraint of the game (role types). So, unlike other teams, you always have a Judwan or two to hand for whatever you want to do. 3 or 4 of them on the pitch seems ample most of the time.

As if that were not enough, the stats and skills of the Judwan are optimised for their roles as both Strikers and pseudo-Guards (they are better at both than any other player in the game can be, even with development).

Lastly, the team is resilient, and killing them does not seem to be a viable option. With Speed of 3+, a defensive coach, and plenty of "free" dice from Fan Checks, they are the most resilient of Strikers.

My guess is that the Judwan are simply a case of botched last minute design. Jake had boxed himself into a corner with his commitment to deliver a pacifist team. Playtesting will have shown that they could easily be defeated by static defense (limiting the Judwan to 1-point Strikes, as they could not move opponents from blocking positions on Strike zones). Hence the skill "Misdirect" was invented at a late stage, and (I suggest) without proper playtesting. The rule restricting Judwan to 3- and 1-point Strikes also looks to me like a last minute addition, as late stage playtesting will have shown the new Judwan to be "a bit good". The rule does not compensate for their goodness, it just delays their victory.

All the best.

[Chris]

Suggested fix?

[javascrybe]

I for one would only tone down Strikers. The fortunes of the different teams is strongly tied to the quality of their Strikers, and Jacks certainly are the "poor child" of the player types.

[Smeborg]

Suggested fix?

I am not close to suggesting any fixes yet, I am just trying to get a handle on the game. Let many coaches other than me decide that the Judwan are "broken" before we even know that there is a problem to fix.

I am discouraging Judwan in our league, but I certainly won't stop anyone playing them.

[Smeborg]

I for one would only tone down Strikers. The fortunes of the different teams is strongly tied to the quality of their Strikers, and Jacks certainly are the "poor child" of the player types.

But I think it is the intention of the designer that the Strikers dominate the game to a large degree. The Jacks seem to have a variety of mainly quiet roles in the game (in practical play):

- Static defense.
- "Assists" (adding Threat Hexes to a Slam, Stomp or Steal).
- Last ditch things when a specialist is not available (mainly Slamming and ball handling).
- Unskilled reserves (on the subs bench).
- Running Interference.

The last is the only one that cannot be done by a Guard or Striker (and teams with only 2 Guards are unlikely to put any on the subs bench)..

Balance in the game is fine. So, for example, if you were to take away the 4th Dodge die from Strikers, they would become quite a bit more squishy (i.e. careful testing required). Apart from the suggestion to move Speed bonuses from the Strikers to the Jacks, the only other thing I can think of off the top of my head would be to increase Jack movement from 1 to 2 hexes (when Throwing, Slamming, Running Interference, Stealing or Stomping with "Does This Hurt?). But I don't know what that would do, if anything, to balance.

I am still a long way from understanding the overall balance of the game, though, so I'm not suggesting any of these changes for testing in the near future..

All the best.

[Chris]

Yeah we have discussed upping the move. Some are for it, some against. I personally don't think it makes much difference and is a straight boost rather than rebalancing. Plus is proportionally more effect the slower a team is?

Concur you can't shift dodge, would be a major change needing repricing and all sorts.. But I do like (without testing) the concept of switching steal, stand up and evade. Strikers are still faster than jacks having the run/1 square only advantage, but will find it harder to perform plays without help from other types. It doesn't address the xp issue but I wouldn't mind so much as they would be more useful out of the box.

[Smeborg]

Well, I think you could switch Dodge if you wanted to, provided you provided some counterbalance, such as increasing Strikers' armour to 4+. Jacks' armour could also be decreased to 5+ if you want, reflecting that they would be the most mobile players. Just a suggestion.

[Smeborg]

But I do like (without testing) the concept of switching steal, stand up and evade.

That would lead to great disadvantage for teams like the Veer-Myn (not to mention the blessed Judwan) who lack Jacks and rely predominantly on Stealing the ball to re-gain possession.

[Smeborg]

STANDINGS AFTER 24 MATCHES (6 matches per team):

1. Judwan 16 (+37) 219
2. Girls 11 (+11) 148
3. Bots 10 (+10) 166
4. Boys 10 (+5) 175
5. FF 8 (-1) 140
6. Bugs 8 (-14) 167
7. V-M 7 (-15) 177
8. Orx 2 (-33) 138

No change to the top and bottom of the table, but plenty of changes in between. The Girls thrashed the Forge Fathers in a violent and exciting match (both teams were rapidly reduced to 3 players on the pitch, but the violence favoured the Girls, as both FF Strikers flew into the dugout on the same turn, one of them "never to return").

The improved standing of the Girls and the Boys reflects that both these teams have a Striker with 3+ Skill. The Girls have the best Striker in the league, with not only Skill of 3+, but also "A Safe Pair of Hands" (1 extra die when catching). Against the FF, she pulled off the "score in your opponent's turn" trick to win the match by a landslide. The Girls are a much better team once they have a second Guard and a card or two. They decided to take the mickey a bit by buying a 5th coaching die.

In the "last" round, the Girls face off against the Judwan, that might be the hardest match for the pests yet. The Forge Fathers are up against the Orx, so should gain some ground in the table if things go according to form. I don't feel that I have played and developed the FF as well as I might, they are not an easy team on first encounter (but I think they have a clear style, once you get the hang of it).

All the best.

[Axtklinge]

Interesting...

At a glance (and like you've been saying), Judwan doesn't seem to have any team to match it's 'natural' talent for the game.
Lets see how it goes against the Girls.

One other thing does stand out, and kinda puzzles me: the (far) bottom position for the Orx.
Any thoughts of what would you point out as a 'cause' for it?
They obviously are more 'pounders' than 'scorers', but apparently they don't get to beat opponents enough.
Would that be a right assumption, or they've just been really unlucky with the dice?


One other thing, with the experience of this 'pool' of 6 games with each race (for what is worth, of course), is there anything you would fell like comment on how the cards deck managed to influence each of the races?

Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
A.

[DixonCider]

a lot of the players in my BB league ended up getting the season one KS and season two, now they are trying to sell off everything. Is Dread Ball similar to Blood Bowl? Are there issues with the league formats? Are the teams balanced?

[Smeborg]

a lot of the players in my BB league ended up getting the season one KS and season two, now they are trying to sell off everything. Is Dread Ball similar to Blood Bowl? Are there issues with the league formats? Are the teams balanced?

Hi DC - I have introduced a number of people to the game, most of them BB coaches. People either love the game (and rush to buy it themselves) or they hate it (and cannot be persuaded to play a second game). I played a demo game (at CanCon), loved it, and bought the game after that.

So I would recommend that people try the game before buying it. I am not surprised that some BB coaches are selling the game, they fall into the category of those who hate the game at first encounter.

There are 2 levels to the game, season 1 rules which can be played in a "beer and pretzels" fashion, and the "full" (for now) rules including season 2, which are richer and more complex (no longer "beer and pretzels"), take a little longer to play, and contain numerous challenges in practical play and development, if you care to look for them.

DB is dissimilar to BB, IMO. DB is faster (one half or less playing time), and has a very different feel. DB odds are more "opaque" than BB, so BB coaches who like to feel very much "in control" of what their team is doing may dislike DB. DB is an opportunist's game, played largely one turn at a time. It may appeal, therefore, to the more gung-ho and opportunist BB coaches. DB rules are based on a set of brutal and largely unviolable restrictions, which may not appeal in spirit to some coaches.

There is only one significant issue with league formats IMO, which is MVPs (=Star Players). They are supposed to be auctioned before every "round" of play (whatever that is), which is a manifestly unworkable system in most leagues. So you need to devise your own system (I have done so earlier in this thread). Otherwise league format issues would appear to be little different to BB. One exception is that games are faster, so you need to cater for coaches playing 2 or even 3 games in a single evening or session (one solution is for coaches to run more teams).

With one notable exception (Judwan, but this is only my solitary opinion at the moment), I believe the races are adequately balanced (at least as balanced as BB IMO). Some are better, some worse, one rather poor (Orx, but with compensations, this team seems to appeal to almost all our coaches, myself included). This is a good situation IMO, like BB, the better or more experienced coaches can take the more challenging teams against newbs with better (or easier to play) teams. Some teams are slow starters, some develop fast, some slowly, some are quite challenging to play and/or develop (but can be rewarding when mastered). A nice healthy situation like BB, I suggest.

I have no idea about long term balance yet ("perpetual" DB), this will depend largely on the effectiveness of MVPs (=Star Players), who are the main outlet for underdog bonuses ("inducements"), the only other outlet being Free Agents (=randomised journeymen). I have only played 2 matches with MVPs so far, I can't make a considered judgment.

The game is quite a bit more balanced than it might appear at first glance. For example, you can revivify players, but to do so, you need to have a reserve of cash in treasury. But unlike BB, cash counts towards your Team Rating. So a developed team will have a doubly bloated TR, giving a larger underdog bonus (=cash for inducements) to new teams playing against them. I thought at first that player immortality might cause problems in the long term, but I am now inclined to believe that there is a natural cap for all or most players' experience (there is no theoretical limit). This is because when a player is revivified, he retains acquired stat increases and Abilities (=Skills), but loses current experience points (and each Rank requires more experience points than the previous one).

So my experience to date suggests that you should play in a league setting before assuming any aspect of the game is unbalanced (the sole exception I have found so far being the MVP system).

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

In a shock upset reverberating to the farthest reaches of the known universe, the Asteroid Belt Academicals (Orx) beat Stomper Battery (Forge Fathers) by the "narrow" margin of 3 points.

The Orx were on fire, scoring an unprecedented 9 points (3x2-pointers, 1x3-pointer), while the hapless FF could only manage 6 points in reply. The FF dropped the ball twice, had both Strikers put off the park (one "permanently"), and were reduced to a desperation play on the last turn (Jack passing to Jack 6 hexes away, doubled success required, no coaching dice...).

The Orx made good use of their Offensive Coach and coaching dice (they started with 2, and gained several more during the game). One or both of these featured in all their scoring plays.

In addition, the lucky Orx got 2 Gobbo skill-ups (both +Skill), so are off to the races in development terms. The extra money also finally enabled them to replace their crippled Orx and long dead Gobbo.

As before, I'm not sure I played the FF as well as I might, I'm still learning.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

EARLY EXPERIENCE WITH MVPs (=Star Players).

"Slippery Joe" (Gobbo Striker!) took the field for the Orx against the Humies. He was immediately targetted and put in the dugout for a turn. When he came back on, he performed heroics to get in a good 3-point Strike attempt, but rolled a double 2... So you could say he was unlucky, as was his team (they lost by a landslide).

"Buzzcut", an Orx Guard with Strength of 2+ (!) took the field for the Bots against the Judwan. He put 2 or 3 Judwan into the dugout, but only for short periods (1 or at most 2 turns) and does not appear to have had a significant influence on the result (the Judwan won by 6 points).

Hard to judge on the basis of these experiences. It looks like a solitary MVP does have some influence on the game, but not much. More interesting, I feel, will be seeing what 2 or more MVPs on the park do. The last match of the last round is Judwan vs. Girls, the Girls have enough underdog bonus for 2 MVPs.

[Smeborg]

Interesting...

At a glance (and like you've been saying), Judwan doesn't seem to have any team to match it's 'natural' talent for the game.
Lets see how it goes against the Girls.

One other thing does stand out, and kinda puzzles me: the (far) bottom position for the Orx.
Any thoughts of what would you point out as a 'cause' for it?
They obviously are more 'pounders' than 'scorers', but apparently they don't get to beat opponents enough.
Would that be a right assumption, or they've just been really unlucky with the dice?


One other thing, with the experience of this 'pool' of 6 games with each race (for what is worth, of course), is there anything you would fell like comment on how the cards deck managed to influence each of the races?

Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
A.

Sorry, Axtklinge, I am late replying to your post, which I missed this morning.

The Orx will always under-perform, because they have no Strikers (who are the main play-makers in DB). However, the performance of the team improves significantly once they get a couple of Gobbos with 3+ Skill (they have a 2/3 chance of getting this on their first skill-up). The Gobbos are then capable of scoring more consistently, albeit they are still a lot worse than a good Striker. The Orx are a griefer team, they are built to damage other teams, not necessarily to win matches, this style of play appears to be condoned in the official fluff. They are also a rather appealing team.

The Orx are indeed quite bashy, perhaps the bashiest of the starting teams, if all you want to do is bash. However, you need to reserve more actions and cards for the Gobbos (if you want to score), hence you will have fewer actions available to the Guards, limiting the amount of bashing they can do in a contested game.

I can't say much about cards, as I have not played a team with more than 2 yet (the Judwan have 3 for their last game), and I have been playing a lot against myself, thus limiting the psychological aspect of card play. The Girls are at quite a big disadvantage with no cards at the start. 2 cards (starting Boys) is quite a bit better than 1. There are different aspects to card play. Sometimes you need a good card to pull off a scoring play, sometimes you are desperate, so buy a card at the start of your turn, sometimes you have a card enabling you to Run Interference (potentially game-winning), sometimes you might get lucky and pull "The Ball Shatters" (a game-winning card by itself). If you have no cards in your hand, you cannot pose a threat, real or psychological, in the opponent's turn. Some cards are close to useless (or favour the other team more than you) but at least they enable you to maintain a psychological threat (for a turn or two) - if you have Jacks. One card reducing the ref rolls by one die can be useful to a Stomping team, but fouls can be countered by another card increasing the ref dice by one. Sometimes you will want to play an event card simply in order to cancel another event card which is in play.

In general, teams that have difficulty scoring (e.g. Orx) have a greater need of cards (but less opportunity to buy them, they mostly need all their actions for scoring), whereas teams that score easily (e.g. Judwan) tend to need fewer actions in their turns (hence can buy a lot of cards during the course of a match). Life isn't fair... Teams without certain positions (Orx have no Strikers, Veer-Myn have no Jacks, Judwan have only Strikers) can draw completely dud cards (cards that they cannot play). Teams that tend to need cards in order to score easily (e.g. Orx) will also benefit from an Offensive Coach, teams that score more easily may benefit more from a Defensive Coach (e.g. Judwan). If the clumsier teams get lucky, judicious use of the Offensive Coach may help them avoid having to play cards in order to score.

I tend to feel happy about a team in its early stages of development once I get 2 cards and 2 coaching dice.

All the best.