DreadBall - The Futuristic Sports Game

[Smeborg]

Yep, mine arrived last night. What's the opposite of scale creep? Because these guys have it in bagfuls. At this rate, season 3 will be in 15mm scale, and season 4 will make great standins for Warmaster or Epic.

Well, lots of the S1 figs are so large (or at least ungainly) that they are always tangling with one another, so I for one don't mind if Mantic have made adjustments to solve that problem.

Here we are also looking at using other hex bases (we don't like the transparent plastic ones from Mantic, they are so large that you cannot turn figurines if they are in a scrum).

All the best.

[Smeborg]

My MRSA SuperBugs finally hit their straps, although I caution that they were more than a bit lucky, and I was playing against a rookie with Bots (a hard team to master). I was expecting a narrow loss, and would have been happy with that.

I killed 2 Bots early on (and injured another for 3 turns), giving me a numbers advantage for the match. Even so, I was behind for almost the entire match. On my last turn, I scored a 4-pointer to tie the match. On his last turn, my opponent failed an easy 1-point Strike which would have won him the match (he failed a pick-up, a 1 in 16 chance). I then killed another Bot and scored a 1-pointer in the first turn of overtime to win the match.

Along the way I lost a Guard (!) on a Slamback (!). One of my 3 kills was also on a Slamback by a Jack (!).

This match I used the Ability "Slide" on the Jacks on several occasions, including the winning Strike. The Bug Guards are quite hitty (they are also the best protected players in the game, although this does not stop them dying!).

I gained a massive 8 experience in this game (3 kills, 2x3-point injuries, 1x3-point Strike, 1x4-point Strike, the MVP), although I lost one of these on the dead Guard (it is the loss of experience and/or skills that hurts, much more than the loss of players). No. 1 Guard now has Stretch and 360 Vision (he used the Stretch many times). A Jack has +Skill (i.e. his skill is now 3+). This is the best way to start them, I think - they can then go on to keep gaining experience. So my forced decision to play without Strikers appears to be well justified so far.

I was agonisingly short of the money required to buy a coach again (I decided to replace the dead Guard instead). I suspect the team will settle down nicely once I have a coach (not to mention a second card and a second coaching die).

My hapless opponent was left with 4 players for his next match, but I told him not to worry, I witnessed a team (Girls) bounce back from losing 5 players in their first match to come 3rd in my mini-league.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

There are a hilarious couple of threads over at the Mantic Games blog forum concerning the beloved Judwan. Most commenters are suggesting that the Judwan are a bit good, verging on overpowered/broken, but the winner of the ManticBowl tournament (with Judwan) is trying to argue that his win had little or nothing to do with the fact that he was playing Judwan. Priceless.

[Axtklinge]

Indeed!
I've read before the first couple of posts, but was completely missing this whole new "argumentation".

[Dzerards]

It's quite sad those Judwan threads.

They basically consist of a number of people giving well reasoned, experience based, arguments for why Judwan might be significantly better than the other teams. And is met by a rebuttal in the form of, "Wats u sayin', crybabies! Its pure skillz, dawg!"

[Dzerards]

If Smeborg's diagnosis is right, and it is the blurring of defined played roles that makes Judwan so effective, then I'm wondering if house ruling a modification to feint (misdirect) could go part way to bringing them back in line.

To that end I would suggest house ruling feint so that it can only be performed on another model if the feinting player is in their front arc. It seems beyond stupid to imagine that one player's fancy footwork can have any affect on influencing another player if that player can't see said foot work!

Additionally, how the feint player can position the other player depends on their response to the initial feint. So if they choose to dodge you can only move them back or face them away from the feinter. If they choose to slamback you can only move them forward or face them towards the feinter.

Of course with further thought I realised that if a team ever started a rush ahead of the Judwan on points they could just pick up the ball, run to a corner and completely surround themselves with inward facing players. As long the front arcs of the caging players are facing the wall or another team mate there is absolutely nothing the Judwan can do except hope to draw the ball shatters card!

So a compromise might be that when ever a player attempts a feint, the target is forced to turn to face him. As in, "What did you call my Mother you grey faced goon!?"

It would give feint an internal logic, still allow Judwan the ability to move other players about, but at a higher risk to themselves (no way for them to avoid slamback attempts). Plus it would be harder to manoeuvre Jacks on to the launch hex as they would have some control over their facing if they lose by having different outcomes in response to whether they dodged or slam-backed.

What do youse think? I'm not saying it's a magic bullet to fix all that is wrong with the Judwan, but it could give positional based defences against them a boost.

[Smeborg]

Dzerards - I think it's too early to attempt a change to the Judwan, and I do not recommend any for now. There is already a wide choice of nerfs available, should such be needed. We need to wait until Season 3 teams arrive (who knows what will come?), we need to see what happens to Judwan in long leagues (although I for one am not holding my breath), and we need to wait until the consensus on the Judwan approaches unanimity (if it ever will).

I am guessing that in friendly leagues, the Judwan "problem" (if it is one), is self-curing, as players will find it boring to play with or against them, so they will just be quietly dropped. I am not stopping coaches in my little league from using them, I am just warning them before they do so.

All the best.

[Steam Ball]

Easy, we can say DB has multiple tiers... no idea how many exactly or which teams form them, with one exception: Tier 0: Judwan (and nobody else).

[Talarius]

Just wanted to duck my head in here for a minute and say thanks to all of you and especially Smeborg for all the valuable information on the developing state of the game. It's been very helpful to read your observations. I wish the game was as balanced as BB, but it is quite new, and if Mantic and Jake Thorton are willing to polish the game over the long haul, it may wind up just as solid down the road.

I'm getting a sense of déjà vu, so if I've posted something like this already, apologies!! Keep posting, though. This is all Good Stuff(tm).

[Edit] my humble suggestion, having only played 2-3 games: what would you think about re-launched balls dropping vertically into the hex rolled, rather than spitting out left-to-right? This way, Strikers wouldn't be able to "camp" for ball launches. On a roll of 6, you could deviate the ball off the right wall as normal. Strikers and Jacks in the target hex could always attempt to catch the re-launched ball regardless of facing since it is dropped from above.

[Edit #2] Just checked. I have said thanks to Smeborg before. lol. Sorry. This is just a good a thread, couldn't resist sayin' it twice.

[Darkson]

[Edit] my humble suggestion, having only played 2-3 games: what would you think about re-launched balls dropping vertically into the hex rolled, rather than spitting out left-to-right? This way, Strikers wouldn't be able to "camp" for ball launches. On a roll of 6, you could deviate the ball off the right wall as normal. Strikers and Jacks in the target hex could always attempt to catch the re-launched ball regardless of facing since it is dropped from above.

I'm sure that's how the Pathfinder that demo'd the game for us played it.
I might be misremembering though, before anyone goes to lynch him.

[Dzerards]

I am guessing that in friendly leagues, the Judwan "problem" (if it is one), is self-curing, as players will find it boring to play with or against them, so they will just be quietly dropped.

That's all fine and good if everyone has a certain level of maturity. I'm slightly more cynical. From my own experiences a significant proportion of the gaming community are power gamers who don't feel any sense of shame or reduced satisfaction from using any cheap trick, design flaw, or grieving tactic to get their win. Reducing the enjoyment of their opponents is more sauce for the goose for such people. Just look at the proponents for T16 fouling.

There is a pretty well reasoned argument, backed up with data, that Claw-pomb destroys all the subtlety and diversity of BB at high TV, but good luck getting a consensus on fixing it!

Likewise there are a number of well reasoned, fact based, explanations for why Judwan are too good, and only indignant rants in their defence.

The longer it is left, the more power gamers will switch to them, meaning others will have to play them too to be able to compete, and what is a fun, diverse game, quickly becomes stale and one dimensional. The earlier someone makes corrections the better as in the longer run there will be too many vested interests making it harder to push changes through.

Feint, from Jake's blog, seems a particularly rushed piece of rule jerry-rigging. In fact the whole game seems lacking in robust playtesting prior to release. Given the apparent beta state of the game and the staggered rule revisions each season, it would seem churlish not to take advantage of community feedback for some rapid prototyping. I'm finding Jake's infallibility complex slightly worrisome!

Once the kickstarter drive is over it's not likely that anyone new to the game will be expected to have to buy 5 different rule books from all the seasons. There will be an ultimate edition of the game released and it will be at that point that the softly-softly, wait and see approach to rule revisions will be appropriate.

[Dzerards]

J
My humble suggestion, having only played 2-3 games: what would you think about re-launched balls dropping vertically into the hex rolled, rather than spitting out left-to-right? This way, Strikers wouldn't be able to "camp" for ball launches. On a roll of 6, you could deviate the ball off the right wall as normal. Strikers and Jacks in the target hex could always attempt to catch the re-launched ball regardless of facing since it is dropped from above.

I quite like this idea too. But maybe instead of being dropped vertically, it's launched more in an arc, cutting out anyone in front, but still keeping the subtlety of facing and the logic of the wall bounce if you rolled a six?

[Chris]

There are a hilarious couple of threads over at the Mantic Games blog forum concerning the beloved Judwan. Most commenters are suggesting that the Judwan are a bit good, verging on overpowered/broken, but the winner of the ManticBowl tournament (with Judwan) is trying to argue that his win had little or nothing to do with the fact that he was playing Judwan. Priceless.

Jakes response to JW problems

I’ve seen dead Judwan before, and with no spare players and the cost of getting new ones every casualty hurts. Are they good? Yes they are, and they pay for the privilege. Can they be beaten? Yes they can. Why are they harder to hurt than Veer-myn Strikers? They’re wriggly in their turn, but in yours they get smacked about just as much as the rats. They have the same Speed and the same armour.

Playtesting did indeed show that they had to be able to move opponents out of the way. They were utterly unplayable without that ability and we tried a number of permutations. More were suggested and I chose the least violent of them.

“Without proper playtesting” is simply not the case, nor was it true that the restriction in points was a late addition. That was around from the start as it is the corollary to being able to throw in bands of 4 instead of 3. Would I have preferred more testing? Ask any designer that question about any game and you’re likely to get the same answer.

Whether they are balanced in the sense that they win half the games against a mix of equally skilled opponents I don’t think has been tested yet in the community as a whole. I don’t think the DB community is, as a whole, sufficiently mature in their skill sets across the board to really know that. If the Judwan prove unstoppable in tournaments then we’ll have to look at them again. For the moment the game is very young, it has changed since Season 2 and will change again with 3. Hard to make a final judgement till the dust has settled.

[Dzerards]

I don’t think the DB community is, as a whole, sufficiently mature in their skill sets across the board to really know that.

I mean that says it all really.

How many dedicated dreadball play testers do you think Mantic has? 20? 50?! How long do you reckon they have been playing with the full season 2 rules prior to release? 3 months? 5? More? Less? Versus probably hundreds if not a few thousand in the community playing it for coming up to two months. And no one has come up with a consistent method of competing with Judwan. I'd love some feedback from the play testing team to see where everyone else is going so wrong!

Plus that bit about the Veer-myn Strikers makes me wonder if he even understands the dynamics of his own game! Anyone with half a mind who has played against them a couple of times knows the key to beating Veer-myn is to take-out or tie-up the Guards. Beating up on Veer-myn Strikers = Beating up on Judwan = Losing strategy!

I'm just worried that the nature of the Kickstarter funding campaign encourages short-term-ism. Jake is required to produce cool themed teams to bring in the pledges, and then is under pressure to produce rules for them against the delivery promises. If your original idea turns out to be less than workable under further testing, you can't quietly drop it cause you're committed to delivering 500 units at the end of the month! Cheaper to bluff your way through it, say if the community isn't smart enough to find a tactic to can fix it for us we may come back to it at some undefined later date (as long as the pledges keep coming in for future seasons). "Oh, and have we mentioned how pretty the scenery is for Deadzone?"

[Smeborg]

I think the Joker in the Pack against Judwan (and Veer-Myn) at higher levels of team development may be the Jacks.

If you can develop (say) a couple of Jacks with all or most of the following Advancement rolls:

+Skill
+Speed
Slide
Stretch
Run Interference

then you can pick up the launched ball at the beginning of the opponent's turn (with doubled success) and potentially score a Strike. This will require either 1 or more coaching dice for a 2-point Strike (a team can have up to 7 coaching dice) or a combo play where you pass to a Striker with 3+ Skill and A Safe Pair of Hands (the Striker catches with doubled success and scores).

This tactic, however, is not mentioned anywhere, suggesting it was not tried by the designer's play test team (or perhaps their leagues were not long enough to develop such players).

I will post this suggestion on the Mantic forum.

All the best.