Slann development question

[Ullis]

A lot of it is driven by play-style.

Quite right. You can have either a bad play-style or good play-style.

[Sandwich]

My offence with slann usually goes
turn1, pick up ball, get ball to catcher, sideline cage
turn2, score

I could imagine safe throw helping when the kick doesn't allow for a sideline cage with the ball in the 1st turn. Or well maybe if some sort of slower offence is employed.

Passing to catcher with 1 tackle zone on him is still a 2+ catch so ignoring an interception also seems helpful there.

Score, score, score, play defense.

I think the use of passing skills is more for defence. Wrestle/strip ball linefrog jumps in and gets ball free, "thrower" catcher leaps in, grabs ball, and gets rid of it.

I guess the choices would be (1) safe throw, so you can try to be accurate and avoid interceptions (though you'd probably rather not keep hold of the ball), (2) nerves of steel, so you're more likely to get the throw away under pressure, and (3) HMP for punting downfield, which means inaccurate but not interceptable.

Of those options, I'd probably choose HMP (I may have convinced myself)... though guard would likely be more tempting. Or ignoring the double for block/dodge first.

[mattgslater]

A lot of it is driven by play-style.

Quite right. You can have either a bad play-style or good play-style.

Funny, but individual coaching tendencies break down a lot more ways than "good" and "bad".

[Smeborg]

I think the use of passing skills is more for defence

My playing experience so far suggests that passing skills would be equally useful on offense and defense. That's one of the reasons I like the Safe Throw idea so much.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Here is an update for you all. The team after 9 games (7 wins, 2 draws):

Catcher: +AG, Dodge, Safe Throw (38 SPPs)
Catcher: Dodge, Guard (19)
Catcher: Dodge, Block [-AV] (18)
Catcher: Dodge, Block (17)
Linefrog: Guard, Wrestle (19)
Linefrog: Wrestle, Kick (18)
Linefrog: Wrestle, S-Ball (17)
Linefrog: Guard (9)
Linefrog: Wrestle (8)
Linefrog: Wrestle (7)
3 rookie Linefrogs (0)
5xRR/6xFF/1xAC/1xCL/Apoth
TV: 172, 130,000 in treasury

Quite TV efficient at the moment, this will start to fall off now, as it's a long way to those 3rd skills. SPPs generated and retained is ridiculously high so far.

I have not yet used the Safe Throw, although this seems to be because my opponents no longer try to cover all intercept chances. I remain very happy with the skill choice.

I am also happy so far with retaining the cripple (-AV Catcher). I try not to get SPPs with him. A common use for him is to cover the main Thrower when playing against a Wizard. Otherwise I don't mind exposing him to attack. Spiralling Expenses is approaching, I'd rather hoard the cash than replace this guy.

I have just acquired Guard on a Catcher for the first time, which I am anticipating will be very handy. 3 Guard now on the team, by analogy with a former Pro-Elf team with 4 Guards, the team will now be surprisingly blocky.

The format (c. 20 games in all, chosen MVP) appears to suit the team and the chosen development path. Plenty of outlets for MVPs on the Linefrogs, I don't have to waste MVPs on the Catchers.

I haven't missed Tackle yet, but I may do so against the Pro-Elves (3x +ST, 2x +AG, also getting Dodgy now). Main rivals are the said Pro-Elves, plus well coached Khemri with 6xM-Blow and well coached Orcs who are just starting to get killy.

Hope that's of interest, and all the best.

[MattDakka]

I would drop 1 rr, the assistant coach and the cheerleader.

[Kikurasis]

That +AG catcher will be a star for you. Any 2+ Leaper with Guard is a god on that team.

I'd almost recommend dropping the cheerleader and assistant coach, and instead getting a sixth team reroll. The net would be +30k value to the team, but you'd guarantee another reroll. I disagree with going down to four TRRs, though -- that's just opening up the door for disaster to strike on this team. At the very least, I wouldn't go below five of them -- you don't have a ST3+, AG4+ ball getter. Maybe if you get an AG on a wrestle lineman, I'd contemplate going down to four, but I still don't think I would. The extra RRs let you attempt some silly things.

[crimsonsun]

Hi guys, I know Ive not posted much recently, though I will make a new thread to talk about various things, but I was reading though this thread and Wrestle, Guard players even with fend are dead meat if they meet me. I always have a MB, PO, tackle, Juggs killer for removing wrackle elves add an expensive skill like guard and I am coming straight for you, make no mistake. Guard is more stable with block, it dramatically reduces the chances you can be removed.

Any way I have a lot of stuff to talk about but I will make a thread for it...

crimsonsun

[Smeborg]

Hi guys, I know Ive not posted much recently, though I will make a new thread to talk about various things, but I was reading though this thread and Wrestle, Guard players even with fend are dead meat if they meet me. I always have a MB, PO, tackle, Juggs killer for removing wrackle elves add an expensive skill like guard and I am coming straight for you, make no mistake. Guard is more stable with block, it dramatically reduces the chances you can be removed.

Any way I have a lot of stuff to talk about but I will make a thread for it...

crimsonsun

Thanks, crimsonsun, I look forward to your post. A difference here is that I play in a relatively short format (c.20 games), thus POMBJugs players are rare (I have not encountered one yet), and likely to remain so.

I don't regard Guard as an "expensive" skill, it's just the best doubles skill on this team, the way I play them. I don't look for "stability" on this team, just to win drives. By the way, this is the only team on which I take Wrestle+Guard, on all the Elven teams I take Block+Guard. In general, I am very happy when opponents target a player instead of playing the drive, it means I win the drive.

It remains to be seen whether my team will suffer damage later in the tournament (say 15-20 games in). I'm interested to see what happens. SPP generation is high (3 TDs per game, on average, plus a couple of PCs and a CAS or two, say 19 SPPs per game). So in theory the team ought to be able to cope with a modicum of damage, it will depend where it falls.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I would drop 1 rr, the assistant coach and the cheerleader.

The roster I have seems to be working well at the moment. Usually I spend all my RRs in one half of the match, or at least I get to the last 2 turns with 2 RR remaining, enabling me to do what I want at the death. 1AC/1CL seems good in practice, too. I need the RRs in the tough matches, not in the easy ones, naturally.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Minor update: last night I had a very jammy win against the much-feared Pro-Elves (+ST on a Blitzer and 2 Catchers, +AG on a Thrower and a Catcher). Comical start to the match: he rolls a double 1 early in his first turn, I roll the same, he then rolls the same, and as a result I score a turnover TD on turn 2. Most of the match played in a Blizzard, not nice for the Slann. His AG5 Thrower also had Safe Throw, so little either side could do to stop TDs other than force the rolling of dice (I felt at a distinct disadvantage here, as he could force 3+ rolls, I could only force 2+ rolls, and he had plentiful ball movement re-roll skills). I dropped the ball in his End Zone, giving him a turnover TD. However, the first turnover TD seemed to have given me a tempo advantage, and I got lucky with a Blitz! combined with a favourable short kick, eventually scoring the winning TD with my -AV Blodge Catcher (suggesting I was right to keep him). All he could do was score back for a final score of 4-3.

I had an advantage with my Wrestle/S-Ball Linefrog, he did not have any S-Hands. The mass +ST was intimidating, but not decisive, it tended to work for him in his turn rather than in mine.

Getting this match out of the way means that I need not worry about Tackle now, I have played the main [Edited...Dodge teams (Ogres, HEs, Elves), the rest are almost all bash (except Gobbos)...], with my main rivals being 2 Orc teams and 1 Khemri. I worry less about the Orcs (I have always done well with Slann against Orcs, especially in tourneys). I see the Khemri as the main team capable of executing a double grind, although I guess their chances are not that great. Time will tell.

All the best.

[Warpstone]

Smeborg, I'm coaching a team with much the same philosophy as you: catchers+linefrogs are the focus. The Krox is a handy roadblock, but heaven forbid I have to rely on him. I'm trying one blitzer just to build a killer.

What I'm wondering is how hard you press when defending against agility teams? Like you, I can dine on bash teams for defensive TDs, but against agile teams, my defense is terrible. Should I push hard into the backfield or hang back and mark receivers? My instinct is to pressure hard, but I wonder if it's better just to hold back and save the players and RRs for offence.

BTW, one note regarding the TV management issue. The problem with blitzers isn't that they're always bad value, but rather that they're especially poor value when starting against other tier 1 teams with bread and butter skills (block and dodge). If you play in a league like mine where every result is critical (10 regular season games followed be elimination playoffs), it's hard to farm spp to blitzers in addition to linefrogs. If you have more time to incubate before the results are paramount, perhaps you could get away with managing TV less tightly than Smeborg advocates.

I can currently handle bash teams just fine, but if I start spotting them an extra 100k due to young (inefficient) blitzers, that's a bribe that a good coach is going to use to foul me into oblivion. So I need to maintain low TV to get through games intact, making a blitzer purchase more of a health risk than an positive gain at this point in time.

[Smeborg]

What I'm wondering is how hard you press when defending against agility teams? Like you, I can dine on bash teams for defensive TDs, but against agile teams, my defense is terrible. Should I push hard into the backfield or hang back and mark receivers? My instinct is to pressure hard, but I wonder if it's better just to hold back and save the players and RRs for offence.

We don't have many AG teams in our league (1xHE, 1xPE, 1xDE, no WE, no Skaven, mine is the only Slann team). On defense, I play a sort of area defense, have players all over the board, always have at least one Catcher in scoring position, take down or multiple mark potential receivers, and make a strike at the ball whenever possible. Often the Elven teams are short of Sure Hands (they may have none), so a Wrestle/S-Ball Linefrog is more than handy.

I think the problem against AG teams is not only that defending is less easy, but that scoring on offense is also less reliable (further to move the ball in one turn, better intercept chances, no ball-handling re-roll skills etc.). That's my experience, anyway. The matches against well-coached Elven teams this season have been something of a lottery, I drew against DEs after sacking the ball-carrier twice, but seeing the ball scatter to DE players, I beat the PEs thanks to a Blitz! (a draw would have probably been a fair result).

These games are wild, I find, with both teams scattered all over the board. It comes down to forcing your opponent to roll more dice than you (if you can). The main strength of the Slann in these encounters is that they are better at threatening the ball, this can force the opponent to take risks that he is not used to taking. This creates chances for either his dice or his judgment to have a bad day.

[Edit: I see I have not answered all your question. You need to press forward and mark receivers (or take them down). Double marking receivers with Wrestle players is good, as if they try to blitz away, they may get a both down. A screen of players across the board between Thrower and Receiver is also possible sometimes, it may help to draw the blitz and thus limit the opponent's options. Pressing forward does not require many players, it can be as few as 2 (1 Catcher into scoring position, 1 Wrestle Linefrog to threaten the Thrower). One of the things you are trying to do is to force the opponent to make his scoring play before he is fully ready.]

Hope that helps.

[Warpstone]

Thanks Smeborg. My cup day (all playoff rounds in one day) is coming up, so I should get a chance to put your tips to use.

What I've found really interesting is how it performs at different points of the TV curve. My ability to play a safe game or fast or loose has fluctuated through the season, which may also have lead to tough outings against woodies mid-season. Some parts of the gameplan just weren't mature early on. I'm wondering if a lot starts to change once more linefrogs finally start getting secondary skills (i.e. wrestle, tackle, and I so dearly want wrestle, frenzy!).

BTW, have you considered developing a single blitzer at some point simply for the ability to develop a killer? My sense is that threat of such a player would go to great length towards keeping Elves a bit more bottled up for the rest of the Slann to mark.

[Smeborg]

...I'm wondering if a lot starts to change once more linefrogs finally start getting secondary skills (i.e. wrestle, tackle, and I so dearly want wrestle, frenzy!).

BTW, have you considered developing a single blitzer at some point simply for the ability to develop a killer? My sense is that threat of such a player would go to great length towards keeping Elves a bit more bottled up for the rest of the Slann to mark.

The OP was mainly about secondary skills on the Linefrogs, specifically Tackle. Now that I have played all except 1 of the Dodge teams (there is a well-coached Gobbo team I have yet to play), I no longer feel the need for Tackle. My focus has shifted now from trying to get more second skills, to getting 7 Linefrogs with at least 1 skill (Wrestle, of course).

When I set out, my theoretical aim was to get at least 4 Linefrogs with 2 skills, i,e:

Wrestle+S-Ball
Wrestle+Kick
Wrestle+Tackle
Wrestle+Tackle

[Why 4? Because with 4 Catchers on the field, this is all you have room for on defense behind the LoS.] However, I got lucky and picked up 2 Guard Linefrogs along the way, so I replaced the above Tackle with Guard as follows:

Wrestle+S-Ball
Wrestle+Kick
Wrestle+Guard
Wrestle+Guard

This is what I have now, with in addition 2 Linefrogs with Wrestle (for the defensive LoS). Priority is to get at least 1 more Linefrog to his first skill, to give a better defensive LoS (3 Wrestle players), not to mention Wrestle on all 7 Linefrogs on the pitch (8 would be a luxury to avoid fielding the Kicker on offense). Fend would be a possible 2nd skill on the LoS players, but I am not sure I will get that far, as at least half the teams I now face (Gobbos, Khemri, 2x Orcs) are well developed to deal damage. More likely the LoS players (1 skill) can in case of need be developed to replace any of the famous 4 (2 skills) who die or retire. And given the opponents I have yet to face (at least the highly ranked ones), Dauntless may be a better choice for second skill (although it means yet another 2+ roll for the Slann, sigh). I have thought about Frenzy, as there have been plentiful circumstances when I would have liked to have it (sometimes for surfing, sometimes for sacking), but on balance I suspect it would contribute to a loss of control (Slann being a "surgical strike" team).

I have no intention of putting out a Blitzer (nor a Krox), as a primary concern is to keep my TV lean. Although my underlying TV is only 124 before FF and skills, my TV is already 176 after only 11 games (19 skills). This is the level at which Spiralling Expenses kick in. I have already faced a Wizard twice IIRC. My prior experience with Slann in short leagues is that the Bltzers are popular targets, and they die or get crippled quite easily, causing money problems when they need to be replaced (not to mention skill shortages). I am deliberately avoiding the possibility of that syndrome. And the Blitzers were overworked, I have at least managed to spread the load around, the system seems to be working.

Hope that answers your questions and all the best.