Discuss Fantasy football-style board games - GW's Blood Bowl, Impact!'s Elfball, Privateer Press' Grind, Heresy's Deathball, etc. THIS IS NOT AN NFL FANTASY FOOTBALL SITE!
Smeborg wrote: A very good night for me, as my nearest rivals suffered.
LMAO!
Indeed, schadenfreude is one of the purest forms of joy that a league can provide.
Well, it was about time the Khemri slipped up, I've been waiting for it a long time. They have hitherto had an amazing ability to pull off Elven plays, pick-up, hand-off, pass, dodge etc. with their AG2 players, often in the same turn. The Khemri coach is rather solid, he will have a good try at grinding the Slann, not impossible with what he has, both Blitz-Ras have Tackle/M-Blow, all the Guardians have M-Blow, 3 have Guard, the Thro-Ras have 2-3 skills each, one of them is MA7. I will try and post full details of the Khemri team when the big match comes, I'm sure SunDevil and others will be interested.
I had 4 blitzers, but one died last game on like turn 3, so I let him bite it (only had Block). I think the Krox brings must needed muscle to the team, and the blitzers out of the box are fantastic markers. Depending on the league, you might or might not want them, but they do develop into player much more worthy than their value.
Let's take a Human blitzer and Slann blitzer. They have the same stats, with different skills -- Block for the Human and Diving Tackle/Jump Up/Leap/Long Legs for the Slann. The difference is only 20k, and while the Slann blitzer needs to take Block/Wrestle first, they have normal access to GAS. This means that they will eventually catch up -- and pass -- that Human blitzer in TV efficiency. However, you *do* need the time to do it. A non-perpetual league would not be a very good place for them. Neither are tournaments.
Reason:''
2013 Challenge of Q'ermitt -- Best Team
2013 Lakeside Cup -- Best Team
2013 Chaos Cup -- Best Team
2014 Canadian Open -- Best Team
TalonBay wrote:It's so sad that the majority of the positionals on a roster can be seen as not worth it
Well, I think the Slann are not the only team on which one or more positionals may not be worth their TV. If you have a team where coaches are putting out less than all of one type of positional, then I think it's a fair question whether you should dispense with that positional altogether.
For me, 1 Linefrog + 1 Re-roll is worth quite a bit more than 1 Blitzer, for the same TV. I like the Blitzers in isolation, but they don't seem to fit the team the way I play it. I think this is for a variety of reasons:
- Their skills are each good, but do not seem to combine very well.
- They are typically over-worked (whereas the Linefrogs seem to spread the load nicely).
- They seem to need lots of skills (whereas Linefrogs are great at 1 or 2 skills).
- They cause me development and money problems by dying or getting crippled (unlike the Linos).
I have always enjoyed playing with a fairly lean TV. In the case of Slann, it is a bit extreme, in that 4 Blitzers and a Krox cost 28 points of TV compared to 5 Linos. If you like to play with 14 players and 5 Re-rolls, as I do, that's the difference between a TV of 122 and 150.
As for the Krox, I don't feel the need for his muscle, on the basis that it is relatively easy for the Slann to disengage by Leaping. More rarely, the Linefrogs can on occasion stay prone and still exert a significant threat.
As others have said, things also depend at least partly on environment.
It's not particularly that not all of the available ones are taken but that the roster can be seen as better by dropping more than half the available positionals. They are the specialists and the added flavour to the teams, something strikes me as off in either the design or the cost of the team when that's the case.
Maybe it's just the time it takes to develop them, they're purely a long term investment. If they ultimately become worthwhile then great, but what's the TV at that point and are you getting so hammered by spiralling expenses that it's not viable?
There are other positionals that are questionable, the skaven Rat Ogre and thrower, the dark elf assassin but it's not the majority of their team's positionals.
the blitzer have a great potentiel, but most of coach won't have enough time to enjoy this potentiel, because the blitzer need at least 3 skills to justify their very expansive cost.
if you want to use them as blitzer, they need block or wrestle first... but, in my opinion it's much more easy (because of the Agility 4) to specialize a catcher as a ballcarrier-hunter, and with the leap on 2+ catcher are more realiable for that used (even if they are blitzing with 2 dices against...)
if you want to used them as perfect "Guard" because they access to GAS on simple, they will need at least 3-4 skills (block, guard, dodge + sidestep or standfirm)... but how many games will you need to have a blitzer with so many experience ?
the 3rd skill is with 31xp. for the same cost of experience, i do prefer to have 5 linemen with 1 skills (like the full wrestle team of smeborg), as only one super "blitzer".
and if you want use the blitzer for the diving tackle, i think you need several of them, to have benefit from this skill.
so, if you start TV100, it would be hard to start with 3 or 4 RR, 2-3 blitzers, and enough catchers to be competitiv...
concerning the kroxi, it's the best bigguy of the game: the most reliable (no really stupid and no wild animal), armor 9 + thick skull, the tails is a plus, and in a team with expansiv but weak players like slanns, a strengh5 player is really good.
There are other positionals that are questionable, the skaven Rat Ogre and thrower, the dark elf assassin but it's not the majority of their team's positionals.
i would add the amazons thrower/catchers to this list... i prefer 3 linewomen as a couple of them...
Man, you guys are just taking shots at all my favorite players!
Anyways, I think this comes down to two things:
1] Coaches get attached to their players. They don't want to see them die and want to build them up. The problem is, players die. Or get cut because of injuries. A lot.
2] There are players on some teams that are just fantastic right out of the box and don't need any skills to be effective for the play style of their team. Elf (any type) linemen can all handle the ball and dodge effectively. Tomb Guardians can tie up players, hit even ST4 with two dice, and likely get 3-die blocks right away. Dark Elf Assassins and Slann Blitzers fall into this category for me -- both are among the BEST marking pieces right out of the box, no skills required. If I'm looking to win a game, I have no problem throwing one of these players into a tackle zone to try and lock a player to try and either defensively stall the opponent or offensively try to disrupt the defense so I can advance easier. If they die, they get replaced.
#1 is linked to #2. Most coaches don't like those types of players because they don't want them to die. Well, sure. We want them to survive and improve, but with either regeneration or a single apothecary, you suffer injuries regularly in this game. A thing that has stuck with me over the years is this saying: "Players come and go, but win-loss records are forever." Couldn't be more true in this game.
That being said, Slann Blitzers are too expensive to perform that role of an "out-of-the-box" marker, because of their raw cost. A Dark Elf Assassin is better at 90k, but still not great. However, he fills another couple of roles, so he's worth his initial cost (to me, anyways). A Slann Blitzer should likely cost 90k, have the same starting skills, and only have access to general and strength skills. That would mean he needs doubles to get dodge (which, for a marker is needed to survive ), so 90k would be fair. At that cost, I could see myself possibly including a couple in a tournament team, but I wouldn't likely run with all four. It would still be too expensive for what they bring, when a linefrog can almost do as well. But, for a couple of markers? I'd trade one linefrog for two others to be upgraded to blitzers. Sounds fair to me (after playing the team quite a bit).
Reason:''
2013 Challenge of Q'ermitt -- Best Team
2013 Lakeside Cup -- Best Team
2013 Chaos Cup -- Best Team
2014 Canadian Open -- Best Team
Kikurasis wrote:Man, you guys are just taking shots at all my favorite players!
Sorry, no hard feelings, I hope! I enjoy the differences of opinion that BB brings.
In several short league runs with Slann previously, I have found that they do not have enough money to keep replacing Blitzers.
The high cost of the Blitzers also has major implications for (a) the number of RRs that you can start with (I think you need to start with 5), and (b) the quantum of inducements that you face, especially the Wizard. With a full roster including Krox and Blizers, you will likely be facing a Wizard every game - not my cup of tea.
It's so sad that the majority of the positionals on a roster can be seen as not worth it
Maybe the slann roster actually has excellent design since there are so many different opinions on how to build the best team, I think everyone uses catchers but not everyone use 4 of them, some people swear by 4 blitzers and I am sure some like 3,2 or 1 and of course some people hate them. Krox again good but not everyone finds him necessary. Seems pretty nicely balanced.
Reason:''
there is Nuffle, always in my lawn
peering through my keyhole
wanting to touch my low hanging fruit
My campaign took a major leap forward this week, as my main rival, the dreaded Khemri, were beaten 2-0 by a Chaos team, while I secured a 5-1 win over hapless Humans. My opponents were not developed well to face Slann (no Tackle, no Dodge). The fact that I got 3 Blitzes in the second half had nothing to do with it... It was a long game for my opponent, we also had a Riot in the first half, meaning 37 turns in all, although the Riot allowed him his only TD. I used S-Throw heavily in this game, albeit I only had to make the roll once. With a ridiculous 28 SPPs from this game, here is the team now (12 wins, 3 draws, no losses, TDs: 46-15, CAS: 19-36):
A few trends are apparent in the second half of the season. I am copping more CAS, and I am also inflicting fewer CAS (it took me until turn 16 in the last game before I broke armour...). The Linos are getting few SPPs now (apart from the chosen MVPs), whereas they regularly got TDs and CAS in the first half of the season. The Catchers seem to have gained a second development wind, and, subject to Nuffle's blessing, look set for further advances. It seems hard to develop a Catcher with Guard, since he is typically either being deployed in the cage or scrum, or lurking protected at the back (either way he is not in position to get the TD). Ideally I would like to get Block on the only Guard Catcher. Guard on another Catcher would also be nice... Guard on this team is rather nice, it allowed me in the last game to boss the offensive LoS, even in the case of a Perfect Defence. Sadly, I am unlikely to get any of the Linos to their 3rd skill, so that will remain untested. Interestingly, I have managed so far without a single Sidestep, I had previously considered this a rather important skill for the Slann, it seems perhaps not.
I had a fortunate 4-1 win (2-1 CAS) over well-coached Gobbos. I made some rather bad blunders which went mostly unpunished due to some very bad dice sequences by my opponent. The match was in doubt until about turn 10, the Slann were reduced to 6 players on the pitch thanks to Sweltering Heat and some failed KO rolls, but they overcame that. I faced 3 Bribes (2 failed), the Chef (3RRs for the first half, but only 1 for the second), and a Babe (worked multiple times). Just one minor piece of damage (Linefrog killed by Troll, easily replaced). Here is the team now:
The team has now just reached its first level of planned development, with all Catchers having at least Blodge, and 7 Linefrogs having Wrestle (not a nice prospect for opponents). Were the team to continue, development would be straightforward (especially since MVP is chosen). Defensive skills would be emphasised, with Linos getting Fend, and Catchers getting Sidestep, Fend. A very lovely team development, only the 2 blemishes on the Catchers (-AV and Niggle), these have only rarely come into play. The rounded Linefrog development is particularly pleasing (helped by chosen MVPs, of course).
The team's record is 14 wins, 3 draws, no losses, and they have now won the league. TDs: 55-17. CAS: 22-39. This is the only time I have ever gone unbeaten in a league. Also my best ever net TD record. The 3 draws were 2-2 against Pact (5 CAS and an intercept), 2-2 against DEs (the ball twice scattered back into the arms of DE players), and 1-1 against Orcs (5 CAS, all sack attempts or subsequent pick-ups failed). I also had 2 very lucky wins, against PEs (a Blitz! late in the game to win 4-3), and against Orcs (4 CAS, their star player, 7439 Blodge, picked up the loose ball, went for it, rolled 1,1 and CASd himself, I won 1-0, this team finished second). So I think it's reasonable to say that the teams most likely to beat these Slann are (a) teams that inflict CAS, and (b) AG4 teams. Successive matches against developed Orcs were tough and started to cause roster problems through MNGs (e.g. shortage of Catchers). I also noticed if the Strip Ball Linefrog or (especially) the Kicker had to sit out a game. In our well-mixed league (13 races out of 17 opponents), the team has thrived.
Sadly, it looks like I will not get to play my long-awaited match against the Khemri, the coach has gone on 4 weeks holiday without completing his games. I will see if he agrees to play a one-off match after the league is officially finished. It would be a good test, if the Khemri manage to pick up the ball, they are quite capable of grinding the Slann, especially if they win the kick-off. Of course, if the Khemri spill the ball, only one result is likely. Plenty of inducements for the Khemri, certainly a Wizard.
Well, this likely concludes my little experiment with the Slann, I hope you have enjoyed it. I have proved 3 things to my satisfaction:
- The roster with 5RR and no Blitzers/no Krox performs very well,
- The team has managed surprisingly well without Tackle (one of my original questions),
- The combo Guard/Wrestle on Linefrogs works very well for this team (I would not have said that without seeing it in practice).
Since this is one of the best ever league performances by any of my teams (the only competition is an Undead team in 3rd Edition which won its first 19 games), I will likely not play Slann again in our league, although I will likely continue to play them in tourneys, subject to format.
Smeborg! You were right - I WAS interested! Congrats on a great run with the Frogs! I am also sad that the Khemri grudge match won't happen - maybe you and I can get a Khemri vs. Slann match in some day!
Reason:''
This is Chance from THREE DIE BLOCK - Your Blood Bowl Podcast! Stay off the sidelines! THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED MAKE THE SIMYIN A REALITY!!!
SunDevil wrote:Smeborg! You were right - I WAS interested! Congrats on a great run with the Frogs! I am also sad that the Khemri grudge match won't happen - maybe you and I can get a Khemri vs. Slann match in some day!
Yeah, I was really looking forward to it as potentially the best match of the year. We will see, maybe I can get the game in, but unfortunately some of the spice is lost as it will be after the league is finished. The Khemri also looks the most likely team to destroy the Slann, such matches are always fun.
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), so 90k would be fair. At that cost, I could see myself possibly including a couple in a tournament team, but I wouldn't likely run with all four. It would still be too expensive for what they bring, when a linefrog can almost do as well. But, for a couple of markers? I'd trade one linefrog for two others to be upgraded to blitzers. Sounds fair to me (after playing the team quite a bit).