Norse "lite" concept team: The Fender Benders

[Smeborg]

Environments: tabletop league with chosen MVP (c. 16-20 games), tournaments.

I have a certain nostalgia for the "old" Norse team (late 3rd Ed.), which was a favourite of my son and mine. That team performed quite well against its opponents at the time. I am also of the view (based on experience) that the Snow Troll (or Yeti, whatever) is poor value, indeed one of the worst Big Guys in the game. Similarly, while clearly not as bad as the SnoT, I question the worth of the Ulfwereners. Highly priced, they are something of a liability at the start (Frenzy, no Block), and are far from easy to skill up (trying to give them TDs is risky).

I like the idea of a low TV team in which all players start with Block and AG3. So here is the concept:

Starting team: 2 Berserkers, 2 Runners, 8 Linos, 3 RR, Apoth (TV99).
Final team: as above plus 2 Throwers (TV113). 14 players in all, 3RRs + Leader.

As a secondary concept (not really related to the first), I am toying with the idea of giving Fend to all players as first or second normal skill. I find Fend is a skill which works better en masse, and I have been impressed when playing against an all-Fend Norse LoS. So here are the early skill ideas:

Berserkers: Guard, Fend (doubles: Dodge)
Runners: Dodge, Fend (doubles: Guard)
1st Thrower: Sure Hands, Fend (doubles: Dodge)
2nd Thrower: Leader, Fend (doubles: Dodge)
1st Lino: Kick, Fend (doubles: Guard)
Other Linos: Fend (doubles: Guard). Second normal skill: various (say 2 Tackle, 2 Dauntless).

Stat increases: +ST, +AG, +MA, ignore +AV.

One of the underlying ideas is to build a team which is good at staying out of contact when it chooses to do so, and is always threatening to score (anyone can be a Receiver). They would pick their fights. With 10 players taking Guard on their first doubles roll, plus 2 Guard Berserkers, the team would not be shy of the scrum. Up to 4 Dauntless (2 Runners plus 2 Linos) would help against the heavier teams, especially on the first turn of offense. Whether the team is too "lite", only time would tell. Anyone can move the ball or score, team development would likely be well rounded. Regular inducements would likely help (for example an extra Apoth in league games). With only 6 or 7 positional players (including the Kicker), defensive set-up would be straightforward.

Let me know what you think, or even better, if you have tried it yourself. You may notice a parallel with what I did successfully with the Slann (dropping the Krox and Blitzers). Our league is somewhat more oriented to bash than dash, so would likely provide a good test of the concept(s).

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Less silly than my Shadowing Norse....

[Ullis]

I don't really see this working in the long run. That team can't really hit agile teams and it's got nothing against heavier teams. And all your players still have AV7 so they will be carted off the pitch, no matter whether they stay in contact or not. Plus they can't dodge or anything so if something big walks next to them, then they'll just have to wait for the hit to use Fend.

And on the subject of ball handling, I see this as all the player's being equally bad at it.

Norse need to hit and hit hard. MB and PO against anyone standing and DP against anyone lying down. Snow Troll Claws for orcs and other AV9 nasties.

[mattgslater]

Could work in FUMBBL Box, can keep TV trimmed to rookie levels by running almost all Linemen and maybe a Runner and a POMB/Fend Berserker.

[MattDakka]

So show us your team's performance playing in Black Box and we'll discuss it later.
For sure a team like this: http://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=645839 works very well in Box, and look, it features the Yhetee and the expensive Werewolves!!!

[dode74]

It also features a rather good coach

[Overhamsteren]

Looks fun and maybe not hopeless, might even try it myself.

Team name, Brog's Men

[mattgslater]

I say Box (I really mean all pure TV-matching formats) because of the relationship between format and age. If you want to get games with an old, low-TV team in, say, FUMBBL Ranked, that doesn't have scads of critical MNGs, you have to go out of your way to sell your team as suboptimal, it's not enough to just be suboptimal, at least not for a Tier 1 team (I speak from experience: Welcome to Ranked! got dodged by a lot of teams that had no business dodging them, just 'cause I trimmed them to 1M+, with no regard for why or how I was trimming them, so much so that I've decided to float them into the 1.2M range and build a new team for 1M gaming, starting with a RRR). And in a scheduled format, you'll end up a perpetual 'dog, and without support skills you'll get beat up a lot. But in Box, you can hang out at any TV 1M+ and be pretty sure of getting a game most of the time. Might work well in open league TT play... but I'd want to run another team too.

[Smeborg]

So show us your team's performance playing in Black Box and we'll discuss it later.
For sure a team like this: http://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=645839 works very well in Box, and look, it features the Yhetee and the expensive Werewolves!!!

Thanks, Matt, that's an interesting team, with a good record. I don't doubt the effectiveness of the team and its coach in their environment. Interestingly, underlying TV is almost exactly the same as my concept team, so at least we agree at that important level. We also agree that Fend has its uses on the team, although with only 2 Fend and no Dodge I would expect to take a lot of CAS from any well organised bash team.

I don't play in Black Box and am not likely to. As the first line of my OP says:

"Environments: tabletop league with chosen MVP (c. 16-20 games), tournaments."

I would expect the team you reference to do rather badly in the environment(s) in which I play. Perhaps people play differently in Black Box, but in the environments in which I play (TT leagues and TT tournaments, both with a good mix of races), that team would probably not do well. Firstly it has no player with the ability to hold the ball (no Sure Hands, let alone Dodge), so the ball would be seized rather easily by any of the AG teams, for multiple turnover TDs. Secondly, in my environments the SnoT and the Ulfs have proved to be rather squishy. The SnoT in particular never lasts a season. AV8, no T-Skull, no Regen, no starting Block just does not cut the mustard where I play.

Another possibly big difference in environment is that for me, results always matter from the first game, there is no building period.

I guess I could do a trial match between the 2 teams... Might be quite interesting. Perhaps using tourney skill sets.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I don't really see this working in the long run. That team can't really hit agile teams and it's got nothing against heavier teams. And all your players still have AV7 so they will be carted off the pitch, no matter whether they stay in contact or not. Plus they can't dodge or anything so if something big walks next to them, then they'll just have to wait for the hit to use Fend.

And on the subject of ball handling, I see this as all the player's being equally bad at it.

Norse need to hit and hit hard. MB and PO against anyone standing and DP against anyone lying down. Snow Troll Claws for orcs and other AV9 nasties.

Thanks, Ullis, I don't quite see the Norse like that. 11xBlock with 2xBlock/Frenzy is the best starting line-up against AG teams, I suggest. The first Tacklers will not take long to develop (in my main league enviroment MVP is chosen, a player with 2 TDs and 2 MVPs will have 2 skills).

Against the heavier teams, they will always have 11x Block. Like Dwarfs,1-die blocks would be their stock-in-trade. They can even take uphill blocks when they want to (slightly better than a dodge). As the Fend comes, I suggest it will frustrate the bash teams rather a lot. One important use of Fend is that it slows down the player taking the blitz. This can be particularly annoying for the slower teams. As it develops, the team will likely be Guard-rich.

However you develop it, the Norse team will always be something of a glass cannon, especially when kicking. However, my idea is to develop a relatively mobile and well-defended team which can compete for the ball even while down on numbers.

All the best.

[Nephron]

A friend of mine is playing an all Linemen + Yheti team in the Cyanide game playing with Matchmaking. So far his Stats are 12-2-2 or so.

He is also using mass Fend and seems to be doingt fine. This SetUp depends on the Yheti a lot I think. You are dependent on a few doubles, but he seems to be doing fine. He is also a fan of fouling (first Linemen gets DP), which seems to be working out pretty good.

Could be worth a shot

[MattDakka]

It also features a rather good coach

Good coaches tend to play wisely-developed rosters and make careful skill choices, that helps a lot to win matches.

[Dzerards]

I tried something similar a few years back on the Da Leeg, though including the Ulfwereners. Here's the team

They had a respectable 4/3/0 unbeaten record but nothing too spectacular. I remember them being quite fun to play.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys, for lots of interesting stuff. The baseline for the Norse roster, I guess, is:

14 Linos, 3 RRs, Apoth, TV93

That would probably be a decent team. I notice in our league that if someone starts a Norse team with just the AV7 players, they do quite well, but as they buy the Ulfs and SnoT, their performance seems to decline. This is one of the starting points for my concept team. The other is the relatively good performance of the Norse team in 3rd Ed., when it was all AV7.

If we take the maxed out Norse team (all positionals) we get:

SnoT, 2 Ulfs, 2 'Zerks, 2 Runners, 2 Throwers, 5 Linos, 3 RRs, Apoth: TV134

Now I have not seen anyone argue (least of all on this thread) that the maxed out roster is ideal. All the suggestions are coming in between TV102 and TV114. One possible conclusion is that perhaps it does not matter which positionals you drop, as long as TV is somewhere around the middle range (or lower).

I do not know whether my concept team will be able to hack it without the ST4 and ST5 players. There have been a lot of new rosters since 3rd Ed., Humies in particular seem to have suffered from the increase in the number of teams with players of ST4 or ST5. Perhaps the same might happen to my Norse.

Another question relates to playstyle. While I understand the fairly common Norse idea of violent attack (or counter-attack) for CAS, I observe that it does not seem to stop the team going pear-shaped with monotonous regularity. So I guess I am seeking a playstyle which is more likely to reduce the incidence of pear-shaped games.

Hope that helps.

[mattgslater]

I really like having one Ulf. Unless he goes out on a quad-both. Which seems to always happen at the worst time, every game. Never mind, Ulfs suck.

Hmmmm... here's a math question. A rookie blocking into a rookie with TRR is roughly 5/8 to knock down (203/324). 5/8 x 5/18 x 1/6 = 25/864 Cas = 25/2592 skill, about 1%. Quad-boths + quad-skulls = 1/81 with TRR. Without a TRR, it's 1/9 to go down, and actually quite similar odds of Cas (3/4 of turnovers yield AV roll). If you have a TRR on 2/3 of all blocks, you'll have 11/81 turnovers.

100 blocks for a rookie lino is 25-30 games, but for an Ulf it's probably more like 12. Each of these comes with, let's say, 1/12 MVP. So what are the odds that you'll go up and take Block before you fall down, assuming no scores or comps?