Norse "lite" concept team: The Fender Benders

[Smeborg]

I like the Fend skill a lot on Norse. It's main benefit is disrupting the blocking tempo of the opposition.
Blocking tempo is a concept where, all things being equal, the team who throws the most blocks in a game has a better chance of winning that game...

I wholeheartedly agree, Dzerards. However, I also very much like the following "tempo" aspects of Fend:

- Opposing player taking a Blitz action effectively loses 1 point of movement through not being able to follow up (movement path may also be further disrupted), and

- Significant increase in mobility to the Norse players with Fend who are kindly disengaged from contact by the opponent (even if knocked down).

I might add that the negating of Piling On by Fend may become quite important as our leage progresses, it seems to me that this can only be achieved by an early plan for mass Fend. Once the P-On players arrive, it's too late.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I found last night that there is another Fender Bender team in existence, in our Interminable Perpetual League. I had forgotten about them as they have not played since February. They have played just 3 games, a loss against Pro-Elves (but with 7-0 CAS to the Norse), a win against High Elves, and a win against rookie Nurgle (last night). They suggest the same rapid and well-rounded development as above:

'Zerk: Guard (10 SPPS)
'Zerk: Dodge (7)
Runner: +1AG (13)
Runner: (0)
Lino: Guard (7)
Lino: (5)
Lino: (3)
Lino: (3)
Lino: (2)
Lino: (1)
4 rookie Linos (0)
3 RR, 2 FF, Apoth, 30,000 in Treasury, TV122

I appear to have gone the whole hog here and dispensed with Throwers altogether. We will see how that pans out (I feel like I miss them already!). 2 Guard is really nice, the +AG Runner is outstanding, confirming my earlier view that this is a team that really likes stat increases. There ought to be lots of Fend coming soon, with all those Lino SPPs.

All the best.

[NightDragon 2]

Right, I finally get the purpose of Fend and am now a convert, so I think I will start adding Fend to my skills over time. I reckon Fend and Dauntless, or preferably guard on a double roll, and you have a powerful lineman set up. So Fend works well with any team, but particularly ones with low AV's? I think I will use it as a second skill after block on my new Skaven team I have just started.

[Smeborg]

...So Fend works well with any team, but particularly ones with low AV's?...

I suspect it works best on teams which start with lots of Block, for the simple reason that these teams are the most able to take lots of Fend. Other teams have other skills they need to take first. Thus in my book, Norse are the prime candidates. I have heard (but not observed) that it works well on Amazons (Dodge+Wrestle+Fend on Linos, for example). It works well on Hobgoblins in my experience (whether on a CD team, or in an all-Hobgoblin team). I suspect it might work well on Dwarfs, but taking mass Fend on the Dwarfs would, I suspect, be considered rather unorthodox (and other much-needed skills would have to be given lower priority).

All the best.

[Dzerards]

Yeah, it's probably a second tier defensive skill after the likes of Block/Wrestle and Dodge. It's usually an early pick on players with General skill access only, like Norse, Amazons, Thralls, Skaven linemen.

[babass]

i do think fend could be a good 2nd skill for elves linemen (after block / wrestle, and on the same level as dodge). but i never have time to try this in a league.
but for sure, it's a good skill as 3rd skill when the elves linemen as block/wrestle and dodge.

[NightDragon 2]

I would always go block and dodge on Elf lions, but would consider Fend as a third skill now. I have decided I'm a useless Norse coach. I was beaten yesterday 3-1 by a Skaven team who had far less skills than my team!

[mattgslater]

Side Step over Fend on elf linos.

[NightDragon 2]

What advantage does sidestep have over Fend?

[Dzerards]

What advantage does sidestep have over Fend?

Blocking at the highest level is all about positioning and control. The idea behind both Fend and Side Step (and also Stand Firm) is they take away control from the blocker. If you read the Art of Blocking, it is all about where to push to and when to follow up. Of the three, Side Step gives the blockee the most control.

Fend is primarily a mobility/defensive skill, with positional considerations a secondary benefit. One of the main benefits of Fend is that it provides mobility to average/low agility players. And increased survivability to the AV7 ones.

Side Step is primarily a positional skill with secondary defensive considerations. Any player who can take Side Step on a normal skill pick starts with either agility 4 or Dodge (the Norse Runner being a notable exception), and mobility is not usually a problem for such types. If you're marking an Elf it is usually because that Elf wants to be marking you and Side Step makes him/her doubly sticky! Thus Side Steppers tend to be markers and will have Dodge as their primary mobility/defensive skill.

So they are not totally a like for like comparison in the same way Side Step and Stand Firm are. The comparison is usually Fend versus Dodge, and Dodge wins nearly every time. This is why Fend is recommended as a Skill for general access only pieces. And sometimes Throwers who lack agility access. Orc Throwers, Dwarf Runners, Thro-Ras, etc.

Other benefits of Side Step are:
It's very hard to crowd surf a Side Stepper. Great for defending side lines.
Harder to punch a hole through a Side Stepper screen
They make great markers, especially of cage corners.
Less hits on the LOS, a smart coach will block Fenders diagonally
Chain pushing to set up one turners
I'm sure Matt can think of tons more (I heard a rumour he's got a petition going to change the law, making it legal to marry a game concept! )

Getting back on topic, on a double you might say Dodge or Side Step is better than Fend on a Norse Lineman but you really need to get as much Guard as you can. My build plan for Norse Runners is Dodge, Side Step, with Fend as a late skill if I want to be thematic.

[Smeborg]

I am still far from convinced that Fend is the best first skill on Norse Linos (under my Norse "lite" concept). But Fend is certainly growing on me, not least since marking a Beast of Nurgle with a Fend Lino in the last game. It does seem to give improved mobility to the team at key times. Here is the team after 5 games (wins against HE, Nurglex2, CD, loss to PE in first game):

Berserker: Guard (12 SPPs)
Berserker: Dodge (10)
Runner: +1AG, Dodge (22)
Runner: - (0)
Thrower: - (0)
Thrower: - (0)
Lino: Guard (7)
Lino: Fend (7)
Lino: Fend (7)
Lino: Fend (6)
Lino: - (3)
Lino: - (3)
Lino: - (0)
Lino: - (0)
3RR, 4FF, Apoth, TV137

The +AG Runner is awesome, he looks set to hog the SPPs. Because of him, the 2 Throwers are lemons, but I don't have 10 Lino figurines... Now that I have 3 Linos with Fend, I can put them on the LoS for an "orthodox" Norse defense. (I had been keeping them off the LoS while I only had 1 or 2 of them). I decided to forego +1MA on a Lino in favour of Fend (I don't know if this is "correct"). The team is being groomed for a cup competition at the end of January. Hard to see any Linos getting to their second skill.

All the best.

[juck101]

Mass fend surely limits your follow up blocks in your turn. Therefore fend is not playing to the strengths of your surfing ability.... I did skip three pages but that is a fundamental shift away from what is a strength of the team in my eyes

[Dzerards]

Mass fend surely limits your follow up blocks in your turn. Therefore fend is not playing to the strengths of your surfing ability.... I did skip three pages but that is a fundamental shift away from what is a strength of the team in my eyes

If you are knocked over you don't get a follow up block in your turn. If you are not knocked over then you don't have to use fend if you don't want to to enable a block on your turn (if indeed the opponent follows up).

[juck101]

That is very true.
I would however argue taking a skill and NOT using it is not the best idea. Using fend is wise if you picked it and I see Smeborg mentions extra mobility. I was declaring a lack of synergy between the skill pick and the team frenzy dynamic.

I actually like fend a lot. I would suggest its most optimal when used with some other players with positional skills as a bit of a wall. A fend guy can hold up a wing. But a fend guy in the edge of midfield is less likely to be able to set up a long surf chain and that is NOT cool for me. I would suggest a couple of SS and potentially 5 frenzy players can go wild but the fend is more denying these opportunities.

I wanted to let Smeborg discuss if this was helping/or hindering

[Dzerards]

I think playing without Ulfwereners has a greater effect on his surfing ability rather than the mass Fend!

Plus I wouldn't agree that using a skill because you have it is always the best action. Examples include using Wrestle when blocked by a non-block opponent. Using Kick if the unmodified scatter is better. Using Dodge if the push back from a defender stumbles sets you up of a surf attempt, etc.