Nightdragon's Tactical questions

[NightDragon 2]

Very interesting, thanks for that. So, I have another question, and this is Elf not Norse related so maybe I should have started a new thread, not sure. After blodge is taken where possible, side step seems to be a very useful skill for scrimmagers and side line blockers for Elf Linos. I can see why Norse linemen would take Fend as they come with block making them more physically threatening. Would you take useful skills like pass block on an Elf lineman and strip ball on a blitzer? How high up the pecking order are these skills?

[mattgslater]

Very interesting, thanks for that. So, I have another question, and this is Elf not Norse related so maybe I should have started a new thread, not sure. After blodge is taken where possible, side step seems to be a very useful skill for scrimmagers and side line blockers for Elf Linos. I can see why Norse linemen would take Fend as they come with block making them more physically threatening. Would you take useful skills like pass block on an Elf lineman and strip ball on a blitzer? How high up the pecking order are these skills?

Pass Block is mostly just goofy. I've never had it used on me successfully, but I've injured a couple Pass Blockers trying. It's a good skill at 76 SPP for a Pro Elf or Slann Catcher... but that's about it.

Strip Ball is a rorschach test: some coaches love that elfy cagebreak, and Strip makes it SO MUCH EASIER, but it's rather situational and easy to negate. If you like it take it early on a Blitzer, sure. If you don't, you'll manage some other way.

[Dzerards]

To be honest, the last time I seriously considered taking Pass Block was probably 1995. More than half the teams you face won't pass at all, and the remainder will find it all too easy to game a way around it. If you found yourself using it more than once in every 10 games I'd be surprised. That's not to say there wouldn't be secondary benefits to having it. An opponent trying to game past it may resort to longer throws, delay the throw or pass to an intermediary who then hands-off to the main scorer, thus increasing the risk of turnover. That said the benefit doesn't seem worth it if you have to forego a skill that could be used every other turn.

Strip Ball is another very situational skill. Seen mostly on high mobility, average strength teams. Good with Leap, an agility boost, and/or Wrestle. First skill on most Wardancers, second on a couple of linefrogs. I would suggest it is better as a mid level skill pick on Elf Catchers and Witch Elves rather than Blitzers. Though any AG5 players should consider taking it at some point.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, a lot of novices show up on FUMBBL from a TT environment with Tackle and Strip Ball Blitzers on like a Human team. They learn their way out of that pretty quickly (not the Tackle part...). But if you take it on one elf early, it's alright. For High Elves, I think of it as a skill for a Wrestle/Dodge player who is too good to go to the line. If I were going to take it early it would be a #3 skill for a Catcher, and I'd game to get it fast while the rest of the team is still cheap, in a matching environment. Entering a veteran league, it's also good,

Pass Block, OTOH, is only good if you can make your opponents pass, and that's only ever true if your defense is just smothering. Even then, it's only good if the guy it's on can Leap on a 2+ and intercept with good odds. For High Elves, it's like a Legend skill on a +AG Catcher.

My High Elf Blitzers like Dodge, Side Step, and Tackle: Dodge before Side Step, but I want a Tackle early, as a #1 or #2 skill for one of them. Mighty Blow on doubles for Tackle Guy (when in doubt: 2 doubles for POMB makes a super-duper stud with TPOMB/JU/Blodge at 76 SPP), Guard on doubles for Blodgestep guy. Late selections can include Frenzy, Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Fend, Dauntless, Leap (esp after +AG), Pro (after Dauntless, Leap, or Jump Up), Sure Hands, or Strip Ball. Always take +AG an +ST, duh, but I've found +MA is nice too, especially if you max out on Catchers.

Here are my High Elf teams these days:
http://www.fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=647457
http://www.fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=705602

New Albion is a little bloaty 'cause they just came out of a tournament, but you can see the basic theme: everybody gets Dodge ASAP, and then I build the toolbox. I've been stuck on one Tackle for a little while now, but I have enough Wrestle that it doesn't feel urgent, and I have several players who are close to Tackle. Fulloselfia has just had awesome luck with improvement rolls, leaving them too a tiny tad on the bloated side, but it's so much fun I don't care. Their only one Tackle doesn't scare me: I'll have 3 before long.

[NightDragon 2]

I thought so with pass block. I was going to use the term "old school" as it seems very suited to inexperienced coaches. What's the tactical logic behind wrestle? Fend and Sidestep I've used in the past on a limited basis, but Wrestle I've never used. I'm guessing the idea is to try and end the opponents turn early, but it only works if your player doesn't have block, in which case it seems to me to be very limited in its shelf life? Unless of course you never intend to choose block?

[Khrage]

Wrestle is another way to get that Block/Dodge/sure hands player down and pop the ball loose. It is also a great way to open a cage by taking down that block/guard piece. It is a great way to slow down a dwarf/treeman/mummy etc who now has to spend three to get up, and it makes that starting Block skill on so many players slightly less effective.

Its also a great way to end someones turn early, because you can choose not to use it and force the both down result.

In short, Wrestle is a great skill.

[Dzerards]

I'm slightly concerned you have been on the site for 8 years and have over 600 posts to your name but don't know the benefits of Wrestle over Block!

You should have a look at Coach's excellent bbtactics.com website. He looks at Wrestle, Fend and different elf lino and blitzer builds. Plus most of the other skills.

[MKL]

(...) I'm guessing the idea is to try and end the opponents turn early, but it only works if your player doesn't have block, in which case it seems to me to be very limited in its shelf life? Unless of course you never intend to choose block?

Sorry NightDragon 2, maybe it's just me that misunderstand your post but ...
are you aware that Wrestle beat/cancel Block? In the sense that blocking with Wrestle+ Tackle cancel any Block+Dodge of the defender?

[mattgslater]

Wrestle is the anti-Block. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other. I like to mix it up, with Wrestle on the Strip Catcher (New Albion uses a +AG Lino instead) and three or four linos. After Dodge, it's a great skill for guys you don't know what to do with, because it makes them more durable on the line (a Block guy can get hit again after a both-down), and it's better for attacking the ball. But it's not as good for coverage, makes the player easier to take down. And Juggernaut is a popular skill on Tackle-POMB Blitzers, just saying. Again, takes both: I recommend mixing it up.

In my experience, if you're Blodging/Wrodging up and it's working, you will have rich-man's problems... for awhile. Keep letting your linemen build: you won't be able to keep them all, so it's nice to have some really good ones left after the good times have gone. Eventually, you'll crash and run Journeymen for a bit. If you do, the trick is saving your money to hire Journeymen who earn SPP. NightDragon2, what format do you play in? Tabletop or online? What kind of leagues? FUMBBL R/B, Cyanide FOL/MM, and large open perpetual TT leagues that run for years are one thing, small, seasonal, or scheduled environments are quite another.

[NightDragon 2]

Trying to answer a few of the posts here: If you have block I don't get why you need Wrestle. I still don't understand why it is a useful skill. Even if both players are knocked down no hole is created for anyone to dodge through. Maybe I'm just being thick. Spell it out in plain English please guys. I play in table top leagues. Both leagues I play in have at least 8 teams and we are a group that has known each other for 20-25 years. Leagues are based on Team Rating not Team Value. We have numerous friendlies when league games are not being played. One league usually runs to the New Year and the other until about May as we are pretty dispersed geographically. By and large we use LRB6, but with some major changes harking back to earlier editions. However, the fact that I remember the first edition coming out in the late 80's and have been playing the game ever since doesn't mean I understand the purpose of Wrestle, coz at this moment in time I don't!

[Darkson]

Quick Example:

You're hitting a Wardancer Ball Carrier for one dice.

1. You have Block and Tackle: You pop the ball loose on 2 results (pow, Pow!)

2. You have Wrestle and Tackle: You pop the ball loose on 3 results (Pow, Pow! and Both Down).


Also, if you're playing a slow team (Dwarfs), they hit you and you Wrestle them down. In your turn, you're free to move away (assuming no other TZ), and the dwarf is left behind.


Other than the occasional special piece, having both Block and Wrestle is a waste, but for players that start with neither, having at least a few Wrestle players is a good thing - I like one Wrestle Witch (with Jump Up) and one Block.

[Dr. Von Richten]

OK, uses for Wrestle:

1: Your opponent has a Ball Carrier who has Block. If you block/blitz him with a player who has Block, and you get Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull), then he doesn't go down (and neither do you) and so he is still carrying the Ball. If you block/blitz him with a player who has Wrestle, and you get Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull) then he goes down (and so do you), and the ball is loose to be picked up by another player of yours, or at least to be put tacklezones upon (at the very least he has to make a pickup roll next turn).

2: Your opponent has a Ball Carrier in a Cage, and the Cage corners you can reach have Block and Stand Firm. If you block/blitz one of those corners and you get Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull), then he doesn't go down (and neither do you) and so the cage is still intact, block/blitz him with a player who has Wrestle, and you get Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull) then he goes down (and so do you) and you can put other players in contact with the Ball Carrier. Even if he doesn't have Stand Firm, a player down can't block away the players you use to flood the cage with, while a pushed back player is still standing and can block you in return.

3: You're on the LOS. If you have Block and your opponent with Block blocks you and he gets Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull), then you don't go down (and neither does he) and so another player can block you. If you have Wrestle and your opponent with Block blocks you and he gets Both Down (or Both Down and Push or Skull), then you do go down (and so does he) and so another player can't block you. Also, if he had Guard than he can't assist his mates if you took him down with Wrestle.

4: If you take a player down with Wrestle and if he was a scary killer player (ClawPOMB) and/or superstar (AG 5 Leap Blodge Strip Ball comes to mind) than you can try to Foul him ASAP. Of course, your player can be Fouled too, which is why you want to give wrestle to players who are either not a big target (like a Lineman), or to players who are made for attacking the Ball Carrier so the risk is worth it, and probably your opponent will have bigger issues (like you having stolen the ball) than Fouling your sacker.

Does this make things clearer?

[Dzerards]

Yeah, you don't usually put Wrestle on a player who already has block, or an expensive player that is likely to get fouled if they go down, Werewolves, Witch Elves, etc. Nor do you typically take it on players with Guard or low movement.

The trade off between Block and Wrestle is part of the metagame. If no-one has a lot of Block, then Block beats Wrestle as there is more opportunities to injury opposition players. If there is a lot of Block then Wrestle is generally better.

The main way it creates holes is the removal of tackle zones, both in your turn and theirs. If you consider Dwarfs, their offence is all about screens and cages to keep the ball safe through overlapping tackle zones, while they use mass Guard and Block to bash harder than their average strength would suggest. If they face a team full of Wrestle, now every two dice block has a 4 times greater chance of causing the Dwarfs to lose a TZ and possibly an assist, guarder, or cage corner.

The faster teams tend to make most use of it as they are both better able to exploit the holes created and still have a good range after standing up following Wrestle. Plus as Matt says, access to Jump Up. Teams that you would expect a lot of Wrestle are; All the Elves, Amazon, Skaven, plus maybe Humans, Underworld and Vampire. Some people will take it on a ghoul or two. One or two Beastmen/Pestigors. The odd Hobgoblin.

[mattgslater]

I like Wrestle on linefodder and sacker types. It combos well with Dodge, Jump Up, Tackle, Frenzy, and Dirty Player. I like Block better on guys who deal the damage, usually, and on guys who have to hold their spot: Block is (slightly) better with Side Step, Guard, Mighty Blow, and such. Wrestle and Block is a luxury, I'd only take that on a G-access Lineman who went up fast on normals. But Wrestle, Block, Tackle, Pro: that's a credible sweeper.

I mean it's not like it's a rare strategy. Pick any great online elf team that's less than a year or two old and has some of both Block and Wrestle, and watch a chronological sample of replays. Try to catch the games that look like they could have been close or fun, but not only wins.

[NightDragon 2]

Thanks folks, I'm going to make a few notes on this thread for my DE linos and my new Skaven team. I shall consider carefully what you've said. I like the idea of a sweeper and corner cage nuisances, and even that Witch though a downed Witch is surely vulnerable to fouls? I've got another question for you: what are the stats on how effective tackle is?