More Orc prevarication

[Chris]

So I never really expected the team to get this far development wise, hence all the bafflement...

Anyway, so team linked to below. Another blitzer has hit his 5th skill. He has been my dauntless chap and has MB, PO, Tackle & Dauntless. What to go for next? Stand Fim for general firming? Guard because I have only 2 guard players thanks to fragile black orcs (though 1 is 1 SPP away from getting guard), saying that this chap does like to pile on and guard will restrict his wild abandon. Or kick because I don't have it and this chap plays both half's and lasts longer than the thrower?

(Number 15 got a couple of cas so is now on 30spp and the injured black orc is no longer missing a game)
http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... en&bg=orca

[burgun824]

I would not bat my eyes twice. Take Frenzy. If he survives long enough then his Legend skill should be either stand firm or juggernaut, jump up on doubles, or +ST if he's lucky enough.

[Chris]

I would too, but... no guard. In virtually all of the blocks this guy has done a frenzy would have taken him into the surrounding monsters... on a more general point I only have 2 (soon to be 3) guards and I don't fancy frenzying without more... The str4 chap just about manages to pull it off, if the black orcs hadn't died I would have considered it though.

[burgun824]

That guy's build wants frenzy. If you were going to take ANY other skill I would say guard just because it's useful. But frenzy would be the most optimally paired with his other skills in my opinion.

[Chris]

Yeah I know, just betrayed but my fairy black orcs and their determination to fall over and die at inopportune moments and hit the apoth on the way down.

[mattgslater]

Guard or Juggernaut. I like both on Dauntless players. Pro too, because Pro on pushes combos with Tackle and POMB, and it combos with Dauntless.

[SunDevil]

Guard or Juggernaut. I like both on Dauntless players. Pro too, because Pro on pushes combos with Tackle and POMB, and it combos with Dauntless.

Seconded.

[mattgslater]

Here's the deal on Pro. It's underrated because it's overrated. Pro is every bit as good as Frenzy on a Block/Tackle POMB player, if … a) you're not in an environment where you can be relatively assured of dominating, and either b) you already have a Frenzy player or c) you dislike Frenzy. For me, it's usually B: I like to take Frenzy on a Lineman because when I use it it's usually for the pushes. People often set up wide lines against Orcs, and Frenzy makes that exceedingly risky, because the odds of a structurally strong chainsurf are not bad at all. Here's an example of what I mean. Just Turn 1.

What Pro is good for.
* Block/Tackle/Pro on a 2d block, with TRR for doubleskulls, is 2/9 * 3/4 * 1/2 = 1/12 extra pow per block vs. rookie, halfway to an anti- Foul Appearance. Vs. Block it's 5/12 * 5/9 * 1/2 = 25/192 = more than 50% better still! If you'd take Foul Appearance on a Guard guy, you should consider Pro on a POMBer. By contrast, Frenzy is double Pro vs unskilled, and 1.2 x Pro vs skilled, with a nasty nasty drawback that's sometimes a fun advantage. Pro's drawback is merely the minor odds of Pro'ing into doubleskulls, which is probably not much greater than the odds that you'd doubleskull with no TRR and pro into something else.
* Pro turns 50/50 into 5/8, which is like trading your TRR option for +0.75 on the die roll. This is relevant on AV9 players who have cause to stand up and dodge out of a lock into just a single zone, by making it the same risk priority as dodging into the clear at end of turn, when you wouldn't burn a RR on a 3+. This is not worth a skill, but it totally happens. Moreover, when it does, sacrificing the opportunity to TRR is usually value-neutral, 'cause with Orcs a 4+ roll is a thing you do at end of turn because you're AV9 and you don't TRR it.
* Pro turns 2/3 into 7/9, and turns 5/6 into 65/72 (>90%), but a RR would be a lot better on those rolls so Pro is really not part of most sensible d6 plans, except maybe as a tiebreaker. "I can just about live with those odds… and I have Pro!" are famous last words. But the fact that Pro won't ever save half your fails doesn't mean it doesn't impact your odds favorably. Just ignore it until you use it.
* Frenzy/Pro is great for rerolling pows on OTS or surf attempts. Pro also works well with Dauntless, Jump Up, any anti-skill, or any other skill involving re-rollable efforts you wouldn't normally TRR.

[burgun824]

With that roster I'm still in favor of guard if he's not going to take frenzy.

[Chris]

Guard is the safe team skill (I note no one is rating kick...), pro I honestly hadn't considered because it never seems to have delivered for me in the past.

[burgun824]

kick is for a lino

OR

I have had some luck building a thrower with kick on the following build track

(pass, sure hands) block -> leader -> kick of return -> kick
doubles: dodge
stats: +ST & +AG for sure; consideration for +MA & +AV

I'm normally not a big fan of KOR but I think it works well on slower teams to help them get that cage formed quicker.

[Chris]

Yes that is my normal orc thrower too. However currently experimenting with only fielding him when recieving and using a lineman instead. I don't think kick is a lineman skill in an irc team as they will always be on the line ...

[burgun824]

Yeah. You're right. Now that I think about it kick probably wouldn't be as useful on a lino. Which is likely the reason I started putting it on my throwers and just forgot.

Regardless, I wouldn't waste a skill slot on a blitzer with kick.

[mattgslater]

1) Orcs don't need Kick.

2) Orc lines vary so much, positioning and setup are so personal, there are so many builds, it's hard to talk about where to put Kick if at all. My most successful Orc team so far on FUMBBL doesn't use BOBs or a Troll, just Blitzers, Linos, and one Thrower, so for me Kick on a lino is no biggie.

[burgun824]

1) Orcs don't need Kick.

I would argue that anyone that's not a fast AG team needs kick at some point. It gives you more control over ball placement and forces MOST opponents to respect that on their set up by spreading out a little more.