3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

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3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by connexion »

A minor rant and something of an open letter to miniature manufacturers using crowd-funding to support the launch of new products (read: teams).

In the past few months I ended up with the impression that pretty much everyone, be it established manufacturers (Greebo) or new ones (Sukubus Studio), with a bit of 3D modelling skills and access to a 3D printing service started putting team concepts on Kickstarter/Indiegogo. It's been a veritable deluge with at least one crowd-fund every month, or more. Market glut aside, competition is always good and it's good to know there is interest to develop products for this little hobby of ours ;-) .

However, some offerings are bound to be better than others and, while there are efforts that seem made of awesome (Greebo's Nippon rats), others simply derivative (the Sukubi being discussed in another thread) with others in between (Willy's Vampires...). So, to try to give this a bit more of structure:

Originality of concept
There are 24 "themes" in this game and all of them have been catered for by the original manufacturer directly or indirectly through adaptable products. Anything "new" out there could present a some variation on the theme. Greebo has the Nippon teams, Gaspez has the Nazi Orcs and a Vamp team with 6 different vamp archetypes, Willy has the 2 Halfling teams, there's a Arab/Desert Dogs team out there, etc. In other words, the possibilities are nearly endless and it's not impossible to come up with a fresh concept that e will find appeal among a large crowd.

Model Variety
While some manufacturers seem to actively research and develop a wide variety of models and options for a team, others left me feeling like a couple of suitable model templates were projected and then the team was developed from minor decoration and pose variations from those. While Greebo's Nippon Rats are, again, an example of the former, Willy's Chaos are, for me, an example of the later (ditto their vampires).

Technical Issues
Also known as "this elf has no fingers on her wide open hand" and "broken spike syndrome". Just because something looks good as a 3D model doesn't mean it will come out well in the printing. And then there's the moulding, which places stress on the printed model and adds imperfections, and the casting itself (resin contracts, metal contracts even more so you can forget about the final model having those finely projected and manicured nails). If you're an experienced sculptor you will be well aware of these issues; if not, please at least print some tests of the most ambitious models to have an empirical idea of what you're doing.

Crowdfunding
At its heart it's the ultimate risk-minimizing business/start-up tool. But it's not a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. In other words: if you're offering me a product on a crowd funding platform, I want to see it for what it is first. Unless you are an established manufacturer (and even then...), I will not open my purse on the strength of pretty 3D models alone (much less incomplete models and concepts). Simple as that. Please consider a bit more investment in showcasing what the models will look like - test print a couple - before opening the Kickstarter for business!

Cases in point:
- I enthusiastically backed Greebo's Nippon rats: great concept, variety and full line presented - most as casts/prints, several rendered and several concept drawings;
- I pledged for Impact!'s Dark Elf on the Kickstarter: it's a reputable company with proven experience, the miniature concepts were interesting and didn't seem to be prone to manufacture problems mentioned above;
- MK1881 pro elf (Hono) seem interesting but I need to see casts before buying (new company for me, delicate sculpts/renders). A bit generic but better than GW's and very dynamic poses.
- Willy's Vamps an Chaos left me "blah..."
- Sukubus Studio is a "please go back to the drawing board" (but I'll happily change opinion and retract my comments if they solve their failings).

Your thoughts?

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3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by fanglord13 »

Willy's Chaos and Vampires are 'generic' but that is why I like them. They are great sculpts, reputable company and the final product (chaos) was just flawless!

I can definitely see your point in regard to some of the start ups making unrealistic 3D mock ups, but I consider myself a sensible shopper and only back what I truly see value in backing

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by TheDancingClown »

Addressing your comments on model variety, I personally prefer the Willy Chaos team over the Greebo rats simply because I can tell what the positions are. I can imagine I would constantly have to keep asking if I was playing against the rats.

I agree with the crowdfunding and technical issues. Whilst the crowd funding is a safety net I would like to see manufacturers believe in their product and put the money where their mouth is by printing a team. Business should involve a bit of risk.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Fassbinder75 »

I agree with most of your points. I don't think its always practical to get finished masters done prior to the campaign though. Concept and model variety are very much eye of the beholder. You have to trust your instincts and make the models you want to make and let the market decide your fate.

Even with a relative glut, there's still some under represented teams.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Wifflebat »

I ended up pledging Willy's vampires even though I sort of decided never to get a vampire team. My thoughts on that team were as follows:

1) I like the clear distinction between the vampires and the thralls. Believe it or not, I've seen teams where I'm not sure of the difference at a glance.

2) The poses are mostly pretty dynamic without being too extreme--no handstands or "Dragonball Z uppercut" poses. This is the one of biggest turnoffs for me in any team--poses that really have nothing to do with being on a Blood Bowl pitch.

3) I trust Willy Miniatures to make sure that the models come out of sufficient quality. Maybe that's a bad idea, but I think the Chaos team looks of good quality, even though I'm not a fan of the style (too "serious" for me), so I gave them a pass on not seeing all of the actual minis before the end. The fact that they also admit that that's a problem and seem to be taking it very seriously helps.

I have definitely seen examples of 3D-created models that turn me off--teams where one player has obviously been reused and slightly altered, or ones where the modeler didn't reference or understand real life for things like hair or clothing folds. At least one of these has kept me from purchasing a team that otherwise looked pretty nice.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by J_Bone »

I am of a similar mind-set... I quite like the idea of the Vamps but until now I had never found a team where there wouldn't be confusion between the Vamps and Thralls. I played against Lemf's Vamps in the NAFC and found it difficult to distinguish the vamps at times. I doubt there could ever be any confusion with the Willy's miniatures.

I also really like the end results from WM and have confidence that they will produce a great looking team. I picked up their Khemri purely because of how awesome and detailed the miniatures are and am even tempted to pick up their Imperial Halflings!

I do totally see the original point though... Kickstarter campaigns can be a real gamble and while I have luckily never been burned you do hear of horror stories!

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Darkson »

TheDancingClown wrote:Addressing your comments on model variety, I personally prefer the Willy Chaos team over the Greebo rats simply because I can tell what the positions are.
Not exactly the best example, considering the makeup of the two rosters, though I do understand your point.
I personally like variety in the players, but prefer the same type of positions look the same, even if in different poses.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Fold »

I can't spot a single thrall or vampire in the willy team that is based on the same underlying figure as another thrall or vampire :?:

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by connexion »

Fold wrote:I can't spot a single thrall or vampire in the willy team that is based on the same underlying figure as another thrall or vampire :?:
I may be seeing things but, checking their site, all male thralls share the same body shape and kit. Ditto for the vamps. Sure, some team uniformity is nice but too similar is too similar. Just my opinion, mind you.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by burgun824 »

I like similar figs (as long as their position is distinguishable). It gives them more of a pro team feel and I like that. Of course, a lot of this topic is subjective. I also like ridiculously large scaled figures and 40mm boards, so I tend to prefer Willy's products the most and may be a bit biased.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Steam Ball »

Repetition is not a trait/feature of 3d printed. It has always been pretty common to take one half made miniature, cast that and then create two slightly different versions. Or from a master, create a new converted green. It saves work... which should reduce price and increase variations quickly, without making positionals hard to group.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Slinky »

I think one of the biggest things you need to consider is track record for these projects. No way would I pledge for one of these anymore for a 1st time company as we have already seen issues with the ability for 3-D to final from some. One year later from Necrom and still people without Amazons. Star Bowl from Rykar is quickly approaching the one year point and had a mix of both physical and 3-D work. So neither of these companies would I support crowdfunding for one of their 3-D teams again. I will wait for them to reach a store and then consider. Other companies have proven they can go from start to finish with 3-D printing and produce good quality and stand behind the figures. Sticking with those is one way to get a team you will enjoy. A few of the major players have already proven they can handle this process start to finish and so I stick to checking them out.
Steam Ball wrote:Repetition is not a trait/feature of 3d printed. It has always been pretty common to take one half made miniature, cast that and then create two slightly different versions. Or from a master, create a new converted green. It saves work... which should reduce price and increase variations quickly, without making positionals hard to group.
GW used this process many times with BB. Looking over the 2nd edition figures you can see it and the Amazon team when it came out was just a redo of Necromunda masters to change them over to BB figures. The GW Khemri Tomb Guardians are all based on a single metal master as well if you look them over. So Steam Ball is definitely correct about this being done way before the 3-D stuff came about.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Darkson »

Amazons from Mordheim, not Necromunda. ;)

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Toffer »

I sort of agree but also sort of disagree.

I personally love the Willy Chaos and Vamp team. I love them in part because they are similar in their look to the original models for the game (Thralls are of course very different) and there is only slight variation between them. The way I see it is that we have new sculpts that fit the ethos and setting for the original game while at the same time being superior designs. In particular the Chaos team is absolutely brilliant IMHO. The similarities within the team gives it coherence on the board.

Having said that I agree with your points about wanting to see the sculpt before I buy. a #D computer image doesn't cut it for me. I also want to see that they have been cast and that in casting them they have not fallen to bits.

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Re: 3D printed/sculpted miniatures and crowdfundings

Post by Wifflebat »

Steam Ball wrote:Repetition is not a trait/feature of 3d printed. It has always been pretty common to take one half made miniature, cast that and then create two slightly different versions. Or from a master, create a new converted green. It saves work... which should reduce price and increase variations quickly, without making positionals hard to group.
You're right--and there are definitely aesthetic benefits to repetition in addition to the technical ones. I think that some of the GW teams that use the same lower halves for a number of figs help to tie the teams together a bit, and it's not bad at all.

I only find myself bothered when sculpting problems or things that I dislike about a sculpt are repeated. The problems kind of get magnified, (whereas with physical sculpts the duplicated sculpt might even be reworked or improved.)

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