Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Smeborg, I was responding to Nephron with my post about wanting to Blitz with the Bloodthirster.
No need for more pointless arguments that go nowhere.

[Smeborg]

2 more games recently. First an easy win against hapless Vampires. I got 6 lucky CAS in the first half, 3 of them were bites. This left my opponent with 5 players, although he still managed a score with these 5! Final score 3-1 to Khorne (CAS: 6-3).

Second a very hard fought and lucky 0-0 draw with Chaos (CAS: 3-5). I spilt the ball on the first pick-up, it scattered into the crowd and then over the LoS. The game never recovered, and was one long scramble, with the ball changing hands frequently. Both teams had 1 decent chance to score, my opponent's chance was better, I was lucky to stop him. I got especially lucky with CAS and KOs, putting a couple of Warriors in the dugout, and made 2 crucial KO recovery rolls at half time to give me 11 players for the 2nd half. I feel Khorne will get splatted by any half-decent bash team (Chaos, Nurgle, Khemri, Orcs etc.) with a little M-Blow (my opponent had only 1xM-Blow, the Minotard). 12 players + Apoth is not enough (I always seem to have 1 player MNG). The Bloodthirster did his best to lose me the game, he rolled 1s at least 5 or 6 times when taking critical blitzes (i.e. about 50% of his Wild Animal rolls were 1s). Eventually he got a CAS, a KO and a stun. He was stunned twice himself, and fouled 2 or 3 times (but stayed on the pitch). Here is the team after 8 matches:

Bloodthirster: M-Blow, Guard (17 SPPs)
Herald: - (0)
Herald: - [mng] (0)
Bloodletter: S-Hands, +MA (19)
Bloodletter: Block, Dodge (18)
Bloodletter: Block (13)
Bloodletter: +AG (9)
Pit Fighter: S-Hands (13)
Pit Fighter: Leader [-1MA] (10)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: - (0)
2RR, 6FF, 1AC, 1CL, Apoth, 170,000 in Treasury, TV151 (160 when the mng Herald returns)

I am starting to worry about TV bloat, and don't have a good answer. Last game I narrowly avoided giving away a Wizard (140,000 in inducements), and that was with just 12 players. In this game I felt I was a RR short, and I should have been down on players for the 2nd half (saved only by luck), suggesting I need at least 1 more player. Note that our league has chosen MVP, thus development is rapid. Lots of players ought to get to 2 skills, though it will take a long time to get a player to his 3rd.

Hope that's of interest.

[Smeborg]

A DEVELOPMENT PROBLEM AND POSSIBLE SOLUTION
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My poor Heralds are completely useless. Because I started with a Bloodthirster and no Heralds, I bought them after games 3 and 5 (out of 8 played). They do not have a single SPP between them. In the last game, I did not blitz with a Herald once, and blocked with them perhaps twice (late in the turn). I have been using them as Linos, putting them on the LoS (I have only 1 other unskilled player now, a Pit Fighter). If they never take a Blitz, they represent a TV bloat of 6 SPPs (Pit Fighters would be better). I cannot see an easy way to skill them up.

A possible solution would be to omit the Bloodthirster from the starting roster (because he can look after himself when it comes to skilling up). This suggests the following starting roster:

2 Heralds
4 Bloodletters
5 Pit Fighters
2 RR
Apoth
TV: 99

Then "all" you need to buy is 1 Pit Fighter and the Bloodthirster. This roster might work better in a longer-running league than mine.

A MINOR PROBLEM: Unrelated, but I am finding the -1MA on my Pit Fighter with Leader to be a royal pain. Perhaps this is unsurprising on a team where everybody starts with MA6. As and when the last Pit Fighter skills up, I will consider replacing the hapless Leader (Faster than a Speeding Bullet is his name) with a fresh one.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

DODGE
------------
I was impressed by my lone Blodger in the last game. He did a lot without consuming precious re-rolls, and was well protected. This tends to confirm my idea of taking Dodge as doubles skill of choice on the Heralds and Pit Fighters (in preference to Guard for the latter). Re-roll skills and protection are both important for this team.

[neverworking]

Having started mine sans bloodthirster I do think it works well, though I would start with more rrs. my initial build was 3 bloodletters and 4rrs.

I think it is a mistake to start with both heralds as I think they are of shaky value out of the box. long term you do want the extra access to the strength chart, but short term you are paying 30k over pitfighter for essentially nothing on the table. horns and juggernaut are good skills, but you already have them elsewhere and can only use them once per turn.

as for skipping guard on pit fighters on a double, i think its reasonable depending on how you approach the skills of everyone else. in my opinion the team needs a certain amount of guard to perform reliably (4 to 5). my approach has been to be committed to getting guard early on the players with guard access (first or second skill) and forgoing it on the pit fighters. i like this because i know that if the guard players die the replacement will also have access to guard too. the difference for me is that i've gone mighty blow on doubles on the pit fighters, in part because i dont expect to get to mb on many of the players that do have strength access. i'm certainly not going to question the choice of dodge on a pit fighters double, but i will say the choice of mighty blow on the pit fighters has been very productive and effective.

current roster:

Bloodthirster: block
Bloodletter: Block, Guard
Bloodletter: Block, Guard
Bloodletter: Block +ST
Bloodletter: +MV, Dodge, Guard
Herald: Dodge, Guard, -MV
PF: Block, MB, Guard
PF: Block, Fend, Dauntless
PF: Block + ST
PF: Wrestle, MB
PF: Wrestle
PF: +Ag, Block
PF: none

i have 90k in the bank earmarked for herald #2.

4RRs

[Smeborg]

Thanks nw, interesting roster. How many matches has the team played?

Perhaps the Heralds could be dropped altogether, allowing an extra RR or player (but probably not both). But that will mean less Guard and M-Blow in the long run.

I think there are a lot of development options for this team. With the exception of the Heralds, I seem to have found one that suits me.

You can't have enough Guard, M-Blow, Dodge on this team, you will always be short of 1 or 2 of these skills, which compete with each other.

I'm liking Wrestle on the Pit Fighters, I think that was a good find. It obviates the need to take early Tackle. And I'm looking forward to the combination Wrestle + Dauntless, it would have been outstanding in my last match against Chaos Warriors with Block.

The Bloodletters seem to be the key players on pretty much every drive I play. Hardly surprising as they are the only reliable ones.

All the best.

[neverworking]

They've played 24 matches, though only one player has managed to turn up for all of them.

I agree wrestle is superior choice for pit fighters most of the time, and that tackle essentially has to wait and wrestle eases that problem a bit. I am glad I took block on the one with +ST and the MB/Guard PF, and the +Ag PF took block as he is the primary ball handler now (originally it was the +MV demon), but I wish the dauntless/fend PF had wrestle instead. Fend is a wonderful choice too as it makes it easier to set-up the assists. Dauntless has been less useful so far if only because I've gotten lucky with the 2 strength boosts as well as the five guards and often blitzing with a horns player.

The heralds do give me issues as I said, but I think long term they become worth it for their reliable access to strength skills, but I'd rather have a pit fighter that rolled doubles to be honest. I also think I need to get leader on someone and cut a RR to help control the TV, I just hate skipping a skill on a pit fighter that could benefit from so many other choices. I've been very happy with the choice of MB as its given my team an edge it sorely needed but aside from putting it on the bloodthirster I think the two I have is enough and future doubles will be more apt to go with either guard/dodge/jump up/ss.

[Smeborg]

I would recommend Leader as a good way to trim TV. 2RR+Leader for 16 points of TV is barely more than 50,000 per RR.

It's true that a Pit Fighter with Leader and no other skills is a bit of a lemon (but my view may be coloured by the fact that mine is -1MA).

I'm thinking of going Block, M-Blow on the Heralds (if I can get their development started!), leaving Guard to the Bloodthirster and Bloodletters. In theory followed by Tackle, P-On, for some anti-Blodge power on the team.

All the best.

[neverworking]

I'm thinking of going Block, M-Blow on the Heralds (if I can get their development started!), leaving Guard to the Bloodthirster and Bloodletters. In theory followed by Tackle, P-On, for some anti-Blodge power on the team.

All the best.

Yeah I think there are 2 ways to build the herald: the guard support: block/guard/stand firm or the killer route. I have considered building a herald as mighty blow/piling on with block at 31spps. With juggernaut I think I could just make a lot of effort to blitz with him most of the time.

[Smeborg]

Another game, this time a lucky win against Dwarfs (TDs: 1-0, CAS:2-2). I was lucky in at least 3 respects:

- 3 Longbeards had Guard (they were unpleasant, but M-Blow instead would probably have led to a Dwarf win).
- The Dwarfs took a Saw plus Bribe (I recommended a Wizard). I managed to surf the Saw, the Bribe then failed.
- My opponent did not take an opportunity to score on the first drive when he could have (I would then have had to score twice for the win, by no means certain).

Most of the match was a wild scramble, with neither side able to hold the ball for long. My AG4 Bloodletter saved the game by repeatedly sacking the ball carrier on the first drive (with AG4, he was able to dodge through TZs when needed). I can't wait to get Dodge on him. The Bloodthirster had a mixed game, rolling several 1s for Wild Animal, but eventually came to the party with 2 surfs, solid assists for another 2 surfs, a CAS, and (more importantly) several 4+ rolls when needed to stand up or move and exert his heavy TZ. With both teams losing players to the dugout (the Dwarfs also managed some surfs), Khorne tended to have the advantage, especially on the long last drive. In the first half I was well down on numbers (5 against 10), but half the Dwarfs were stranded away from the play. Here is the team after 9 games:

Bloodthirster: M-Blow, Guard (19 SPPs)
Herald: - (0)
Herald: - (0)
Bloodletter: S-Hands, +MA (19)
Bloodletter: Block, Dodge (18)
Bloodletter: Block, Dodge (18)
Bloodletter: +AG (10)
Pit Fighter: S-Hands, Pass (16)
Pit Fighter: Leader [-1MA] (10)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: - (0)
2RR, 7FF, 1AC, 1CL, Apoth, 240,000 in Treasury, TV165

This is excellent all-round development, with the notable exception of the Heralds. 2 Blodgers now, and a reasonable chance at 2-turn scores. My record is good (7-1-1), but I don't feel this is a fair reflection of the team's performance, rather it is down to sheer luck. Maybe this is a "lucky" team - we shall see.

I now have to face (twice!) a very well coached WE team, with an 80 SPP abomination (Wardancer with +2MA, +1AG, Tackle, Sprint). I expect to get thrashed. If the other Wardancer has Strip Ball, I will have very little ability to hold the ball. I'll let you know what happens, the first match will be in about a month's time.

All the best.

[Megr1m]

The advantage of those kinds of teams is that there aren't going to be any surprises. You pretty much know exactly what he is going to do, and roughly when.

A pity is that you have not even a single Tackle, let alone an ideal Tackle/MB combo. Still, depending on how deep their bench is and what the rest of the team looks like, I wouldn't rule yourself out.

[Smeborg]

The advantage of those kinds of teams is that there aren't going to be any surprises. You pretty much know exactly what he is going to do, and roughly when.

A pity is that you have not even a single Tackle, let alone an ideal Tackle/MB combo. Still, depending on how deep their bench is and what the rest of the team looks like, I wouldn't rule yourself out.

I had a sneak peek at his roster this week. He has the WD abomination on 80 SPPs, the other WD has +1MA, S-Ball (nasty for me), 3 Catchers with Wrestle, a Leader (to go with 3RR), and a couple of other skills such as a Block Lino. There will be more skill-ups by the time I play him, he is winning all his matches by large margins (5-0 sometimes). 12 players + Apoth, his TV is currently below mine (but by a bit less than a Wizard), and will be closer by the time we meet.

My problem is a simple one, I have no-one who can hold the ball against both Wardancers. I have the option of changing Pass on my Pit Fighter to Block, which together with his S-Hands would make him half-decent as a ball-holder, but at the cost of messing up his long term development as the team Thrower. So I think I will leave him as he is.

I guess if I can put one Wardancer in the dugout, I can carry the ball a little (but not much) better. I think I have to put them both in the dugout to have any chance (he does not hide them). I feel I have a sporting chance on defense, thanks to Frenzy, Horns and Wrestle, but we shall see.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I played my first match against the dreaded WEs. One Wardancer with +1AG, +2MA, Tackle, Sprint. The other with +1AG, +1MA, Strip Ball, Tackle. Final score 1-3 (CAS: 0-4).

Alas, I was undone by a Blitz! at the first kick-off. This was compounded when my first scoring attempt failed (a dodge with Dodge). So I was 0-2 down after just 3 turns. The rest of the match went better, I scored on turn 8 after moving a cage down the sideline. Then I survived the 1-turn score attempt (RR used for the pick-up, a later GFI failed). So I was 1-2 down at half time.

The 2nd half was cat and mouse, my opponent tried to hold the ball, while I had to press hard, but keeping my backfiled well protected. Eventually, I forced my opponent to make a scoring play on turn 7, involving some risk, sadly it worked, so I was 1-3 down with only 2 turns left. Unable to win or draw, I concentrated on damage at that point.

I made 3 fouls, a KO, a SI and a MNG, but all 3 foulers were sent off. So I couldn't foul at will. No damage to the dreaded Wardancers, but at least I "helped my opponent with his TV", with 1 dead Lino and 1 crippled (retired) Lino, both with skills. I tried to mangle not only the Wardancers, but also the Kicker (a royal pain), and a Catcher with Guard, but all to no avail.

An entertaining match for both players, I could have deployed better for the Blitz!, and I could also have done the sideline cage manouevre earlier, so some lessons taken from the encounter. Hard to see, however, how I could have got better than a draw, unless my opponent rolled a double 1 at some point (he didn't). Indeed I only remember 1 failed roll by my opponent in the match (the failed GFI on the 1-turn score attempt). My armour rolls were quite good, my opponent's were poor. Sadly all KOd WEs came back immediately, that might have made a difference.

All the best.

[plasmoid]

Hi Guys,
I've been following this thread for quite a while.
It seems to me that your experience - like mine - is that the Khorne team performs below average.

Now, if one were to boost the team into the low middle of tier 1 - and I'm not saying you should, but I might - what would it take?
Just how weak is the team as a starting team? How much is required?

I've been considering 3 options:
*The bland one: team reroll cost reduced by 10K.
*The marginal one: Bloodthirster has wings. Bloodthirster gotta fly. Leap + VVL for no extra cost. The threat of it would probably be worth more than the actual doing.
*The big one: ST+ on the bloodthirster. Perhaps for an MA reduction. Would make the team even more about the reign of the big monster. Heck, he'd almost resemble a Bloodthirster.

Comments?
Cheers
Martin

[sann0638]

Below average is right. 1-0-8 for me in our tabletop league, and i am not that much of a chump. That's all.