What makes Chaos tick in tournaments?

[Smeborg]

I started playing Chaos in January this year, and have had a good run of results in 4 tournaments (with quite different formats). 25 games: 17 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses, for an unexpectedly good 74% win rate. I caution that (a) in 2 of these tourneys I enjoyed a handicap, and (b) many of my matches have been against bash teams (especially Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs and Orcs). I have also had my share of "good fortune". Thus the results may not be representative. Nevertheless, 25 matches is enough for me to suspect that Chaos can be better in tourneys than they are cracked up to be, and that the NAF stats may understate the potential of the team.

I will attempt to summarise what works for Chaos teams in tournaments:

- Chaos teams in leagues typically do not develop or play in the same way as Chaos teams in tournaments. Expecting to play or develop the team in the same way is to invite disaster.

- They are not a slayer team (although they may have one slayer player, typically the Minotard). Rather they are a versatile team with high ST.

- They are not a stalling team, rather they score as and when they can (often with a hand-off), trusting to their excellent defense.

- Wrestle Beastmen are simply outstanding. A minimum of 2 is recommended, more in a skill-rich tourney.

- Tournament rosters are surprisingly variable, considering there are only 3 player-types. The Minotard may or may not be taken, 2 or 3 Re-rolls may be taken, there is a big difference between skill-poor and skill-rich tourneys.

- 2 Re-rolls is adequate in most formats, and can be a good starting point when planning a roster.

- 12 players plus Apothecary is the minimum number of players in most formats (otherwise slayer teams with mass M-Blow will win on numbers).

- Bread and butter skills should be taken, i.e. Block, Wrestle, Sure Hands (Claw on the Minotard if he is playing). I have seen or played against Chaos rosters with other skills, such as Guard, M-Blow, Claw (not on the Minotard), Extra Arms, 2-Heads etc. I consider such rosters inferior (in tourneys).

- With 10-11 players with AG3 and blitzing at ST4, the team is versatile on both offense and defense, able to adapt to different situations, opponents, and playing styles. They are good at attacking the ball. Because they do not play in a fixed style, I suspect Chaos will suit coaches with experience playing a variety of teams in tourneys.

- Lastly, but not leastly, most of their games are sporting and exciting, albeit they can be hard work.

I hope that's of interest. I would welcome comments from coaches who have had any degree of success with Chaos.

[Fassbinder75]

I think one thing in your favour Smeborg, is that Australasian tournaments tend to have more generous TV allowances and/or skill packages than UK ones (not sure about Europe).

The NAF Championship is TV110 + 6 skills distributed over two days (puzzling) and having faced your extremely viable TV125 squad I don't expect you'd have the same level of success with 2 rerolls and only three of Block/Wrestle/Sure Hands. Only one brave soul took Chaos at NAFC and 12 of the 24 rosters made up 85% of the team selections.

I agree with your assessment, but they don't become viable until the TV tide rises.

[Smeborg]

Fassbinder - here are the rosters I have taken so far:

CANCON: TV100, NO SKILLS AT START, PROGRESSION (LIKE A LEAGUE) WITH CHOSEN MVP
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Warriors
7 Beastmen
3 RR

The standard starting roster for leagues. Won 4, drew 1, lost 2. Started with no skills, acquired 8 in the course of the tourney, but finished with just 4 thanks to deaths, retirements and MNGs. So averaged somewhere between 3 and 4 skills for the tourney (say 3 and a half).

CAPITAL SHIELD (WELLINGTON), TV110 + SKILLS PACKAGE BASED ON NOMINAL SPPs (MORE FOR CHAOS)
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Minotard: Block, Claw
3 x Warriors: Block, Block
8 Beastmen: S-Hands, Wrestle, Wrestle
2 x RR
Apoth

Won 5, lost 1 (to Lizzies). 7 skills.

AUSBOWL TEAM CHAMPS (MELBOURNE), TV110 + "QUASI-PROGRESSION", NO SKILLS FOR FIRST GAME
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minotard
3 x Warriors
8 x Beastmen
2 x RR
Apoth

I took Claw on the Minotard after the first game, then my usual mixture of S-Hands, Block and Wrestle. Leader after game 2 IIRC and a 3rd RR later in the tourney. I enjoyed a handicap of 2 x 50,000 cards for being the only Chaos team (out of 30), a main reason I took them. I was also largely able to pick my opponents (part of the deal), I faced 3 x Dwarf, 2 x Orc and 1 x Gobbo (in an all-Stunty team). Won 5, lost 1 (to Dwarfs in the first game). Averaged 4 skills per game (started with none, ended with 9).

EUCBOWL (TV 125, 1 SKILL ALLOWED PER PLAYER, NO DOUBLES OR STAT INCREASES)
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4 x Warriors: 4x Block
8 x Beastmen: 4 x Wrestle, 2 x Block
2 x RR
Apoth

10 skills. Won 3, drew 2, lost 1 (to Humans).

SUMMARY
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Although the sample is small, the team looks to be doing well at different levels of TV, in different formats (progression, fixed TV + skills package, higher TV with purchased skills) and with different numbers of skills (0 to 10), The average number of skills the team has played with in each game is 6, which I am guessing is somewhere close to the global tourney average (I haven't played enough in Europe to know).

Hope that helps.

[Nuffle_Hate_Me]

I have found the same conundrum in planning my Choas Cup, Chaos team for this year.

Rules: 1,000,000 GP for team, staff, and RR's, in addition 150K in skills (No Leader, no more than 4x of one skill norm ore than 2x on a player)

So without taking many doubles you can take either 7 Normal skills or 6 Normal skills and 1 Double skill.

Here is what I have so far after pouring over many different rosters, and realizing that tournament Chaos is much different than league Chaos.

4 x Warriors, 4 x Block
8 x Beastmen, 2 x Wrestle, 1 x Tackle
2 x RR's

Current alternates would include either: 3x Wrestle on the Beastmen or 7 x Beastmen (same skills) with 3 x RR's

[Smeborg]

NHM - I would take Sure Hands on a Beastman, and drop the Tackle (one of the points of Wrestle is that it means you don't have to take Tackle).

I would probably also drop Block on one of the Warriors, and replace it with Leader. The best doubles skill for Chaos, I suggest.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

Sorry, I just saw that you can take 2 skills on a player. I will have a think about it and get back to you.

[babass]

NHM - I would take Sure Hands on a Beastman, and drop the Tackle (one of the points of Wrestle is that it means you don't have to take Tackle).

I would probably also drop Block on one of the Warriors, and replace it with Leader. The best doubles skill for Chaos, I suggest.

Hope that helps.

No leader at the chaos cup.

And there is actually another topic for this roster at this tourney:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=40065

edit:
i do like your proposal actually

Here is a suggestion:

Minotard
2 x Warriors
8 x Beastmen
2 x RR
Apoth

Skills
-------
Minotard: Block+Claw
Warriors: Block, Block
Beastmen: S-Hands, Wrestle, Wrestle

Hope that helps.

[Nuffle_Hate_Me]

Wrestle doesn't do the same thing, a common misconception, because you end up on the ground and can't attempt to retrieve the ball from a dodger with the same player. You also can't mark dodge players and take away their free re-rolls. I think you need both on a Chaos team, especially in a tournament format.

[Smeborg]

NHM - my apologies for my above post which was sent in haste. babass has kindly dredged up my earlier suggested roster, which I think (without playtesting) looks better:
*************
Minotard
2 x Warriors
8 x Beastmen
2 x RR
Apoth

Skills
-------
Minotard: Block+Claw
Warriors: Block, Block
Beastmen: S-Hands, Wrestle, Wrestle
*************
I suspect that you will face a lot of "short" rosters at TV100 (11 or 12 players at most). Thus a Block+Claw Minotard should do well. He normally gets about 1 Stun, 1 KO and 1 CAS per half against bash teams, assuming he stays on the pitch. That is enough to cause opponents some discomfort (although he is less effective against AG teams, who are better at leaving him stranded).

I stand by Wrestle, it is simply outstanding on Beastmen or Pestigors in tournaments. Give it a try in playtesting.

Whatever you do, I suggest you take Sure Hands.

I am not familiar with the Chaos Cup, although I hope to make it one year. I guess a lot depends on the mix of teams you expect to face.

Hope that helps.