How to avoid... The Claw!

[Chris]

Oh no, my opponents can see my desperate pleas for help!

The 'bloat' was just a legacy of my last proper game (as opposed to the disconnect and 3 no-shows). I was 40k down, had a massive treasury, was doing well at that point and thought I may as well get them.

Currently I am carrying 3 linemen because only had 11 players last match vs a 16 strong necro team and I feared being fouled off the pitch. So probably one of those will get axed.

As to redundancy - I lack any real skill at this game, so aimed to have a series of identical players so I wouldn't end up out of position

The grab on the troll was a massive mistake, just too stupid and unreliable, wish I had break tackle for last ditch efforts instead.

Thrower is up for his second skill, probably take kick off return.

http://bbm.jcmag.fr/BloodBowlManager.We ... lang=en-US

[MattDakka]

1) Why 2 Assistant Coaches and 2 Cheerleaders? Absolutely not TV cost-effective, I suggest to fire them;
2) Why Stand Firm on the #9? I think you should have taken either Guard (AG 4 helps to place Guard) or Frenzy, the ideal Orc Blitzer in my opinion has Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Guard;
3) Why Dauntless on the #11? Orcs have enough ST and Guards to deal with high ST opponent players;
4) A MA 3 BOB is too slow, I suggest to fire him;
Kick Off return is great for the Thrower, if you manage to get Leader after that drop the 3rd reroll in order to lower your TV.

[Chris]

1) Why 2 Assistant Coaches and 2 Cheerleaders? Absolutely not TV cost-effective, I suggest to fire them;
- Already have, they were a legacy of 4 matches ago, had to concede games since then bar 1 where it made no difference. They went before the match I played last night (vs necro, got a pitch clearance).

2) Why Stand Firm on the #9? I think you should have taken either Guard (AG 4 helps to place Guard) or Frenzy, the ideal Orc Blitzer in my opinion has Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Guard;
- Needed a stand firm model, all the Black Orcs had died in 2 matches, he had a skill slot. He then proceeded to get +1ag on the next roll.

3) Why Dauntless on the #11? Orcs have enough ST and Guards to deal with high ST opponent players;
- Misclick in cyanide. Well, I was knackered on a tiny laptop and just made a stupid mistake. He then had to get guard after that as all the guarders had died (see 2).

4) A MA 3 BOB is too slow, I suggest to fire him;
- I would bar the problem of getting 9 games a season, 1 a week. I can't face skilling him up again. Aiming for a promotion and then a shot at div 1, rooky black orc would be more of a hindrance.

[crimsonsun]

1) Why 2 Assistant Coaches and 2 Cheerleaders? Absolutely not TV cost-effective, I suggest to fire them;
- Already have, they were a legacy of 4 matches ago, had to concede games since then bar 1 where it made no difference. They went before the match I played last night (vs necro, got a pitch clearance).

fair enough I do that time to time

2) Why Stand Firm on the #9? I think you should have taken either Guard (AG 4 helps to place Guard) or Frenzy, the ideal Orc Blitzer in my opinion has Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Frenzy, Juggernaut, Guard;
- Needed a stand firm model, all the Black Orcs had died in 2 matches, he had a skill slot. He then proceeded to get +1ag on the next roll.

I personally would have two Killer build Blitzers and Two Supporting Blitzers and I do not put Frenzy on Killers as its going to get you killed. I also only put Guard there if its really needed within the squad. Personally my Killer would be and in this order MB, Tackle, PO, Juggernaut, Pro and hopefully a double for Jump Up. The support ones would be built around any statistic increases gained, so the +str one would be MB, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Stand Firm, Dodge/Guard, while the +Ag one would be MB, Tackle, guard, strip ball, dodge/+ma/fend.

3) Why Dauntless on the #11? Orcs have enough ST and Guards to deal with high ST opponent players;
- Misclick in cyanide. Well, I was knackered on a tiny laptop and just made a stupid mistake. He then had to get guard after that as all the guarders had died (see 2).

I actually feel Dauntless is fine here, as while Orcs have the Strength and Guard to counter they do not have the ability to manoeuvre or re-position once committed so it can be useful once every other match, which at this sort of Tv is all amount maximising your increasing effect when stacked skilled in combination with reducing redundancy pitch wide.

Also as misclicks go that's not to bad, I have a superstar Blitz Ra Pass Block instead of strip ball which was rather less fortunate before!

4) A MA 3 BOB is too slow, I suggest to fire him;
- I would bar the problem of getting 9 games a season, 1 a week. I can't face skilling him up again. Aiming for a promotion and then a shot at div 1, rooky black orc would be more of a hindrance.

I feel Ma3 is fine in this situation and while I feel Matt would have a point in a Match maker style environment its not true for Division 2 of the OCC, seriously after fighting up from division 7 with 40 coaches a division with Division 2 & 3 having 2200k plus bash sides as the majority levelling a black orc for a point of movement is utterly Stupid! Your black Orcs, need more skills not less! I can speak from experience on this being as I lost 3/4 of my experienced Tomb Guardians 2 seasons ago, and have added another 2-3 rookies to that pile since meaning I've been battling to get them developed since. 2 Seasons I have achieved 2 level 2's - which is why I chose MB, going long term rather than the short for if I went with guard, I would win more games but they will never see another increase while I remain in Division 1-3 as the are too many Killers.

[crimsonsun]

Oh no, my opponents can see my desperate pleas for help!

Honestly its only a fool that thinks they know everything

Currently I am carrying 3 linemen because only had 11 players last match vs a 16 strong necro team and I feared being fouled off the pitch. So probably one of those will get axed.

I feel you should have 3-4 line Orcs. I know your concerned about TV but there comes a point which your pretty much out that any Tv trimming is less effective than a skilled bench (this is a League thing not a MM one) so I don't see you needing to cut anyone here.

As to redundancy - I lack any real skill at this game, so aimed to have a series of identical players so I wouldn't end up out of position

Lok well I know that a lie because your in tier 2 of the OCC you don't get there by losing all your games! Symmetry works for bash sides as does spamming set skills/players like stand firm, Guard, Block, Grab, Tackle Black Orcs for fantastic pitch control. Honestly players that break the mould and go a different route to there brother will normally be the first targeted by the opposition. Stay safe, go with the Trend, be Normal!

The grab on the troll was a massive mistake, just too stupid and unreliable, wish I had break tackle for last ditch efforts instead.

I LOVE grab but you need 2-4 players with it honestly! Break Tackle on a troll however would suck ballz, he is really stupid and a loner that's a turn over machine waiting to happen. He has block so personally I would have looked at multi block but I would likely have gone grab myself. I do not give Break Tackle to Blockers as a rule unless they have something special (like plus strength, or several doubles) even without loner on my Tomb Guardians Break Tackle is for blitzing and that's not there job.

Thrower is up for his second skill, probably take kick off return.

Tons of options here depending on the roll, but Kick off Return is very solid no doubt...

[MattDakka]

- I would bar the problem of getting 9 games a season, 1 a week. I can't face skilling him up again. Aiming for a promotion and then a shot at div 1, rooky black orc would be more of a hindrance.

I play with a TV 1830 Orc team (TV 2000 before meeting a Chaos team) in Black Box and having 2 rookie Black Orcs it's not a big problem, the sooner you replace him, the sooner you will have a decent BOB, MA 3 is bad for a supporting player already slow by default.

I personally would have two Killer build Blitzers and Two Supporting Blitzers and I do not put Frenzy on Killers as its going to get you killed

Killed? More Blocks, more chances of hurting stuff, you absolutely need to kill clawpombers before they do too much damage, hence the reason of maximizing the impact of each Blitz/Block.

I also only put Guard there if its really needed within the squad.

Guard is a core skill for Orcs.

Personally my Killer would be and in this order MB, Tackle, PO, Juggernaut, Pro and hopefully a double for Jump Up.

Piling On before Tackle is generally better unless you're expecting a lot of Dodge in the opponent team, Pro is a way worse pick than Frenzy, Jump Up is great of course, my build was about regular rolls.

The support ones would be built around any statistic increases gained, so the +str one would be MB, Juggernaut, Frenzy, Stand Firm, Dodge/Guard, while the +Ag one would be MB, Tackle, guard, strip ball, dodge/+ma/fend.

I like Frenzy before Juggernaut, and Stand Firm is not very useful against clawpomb, again, you need to hurt stuff, if you just stand there you will be clawpombed, so Piling On is absolutely necessary.

I actually feel Dauntless is fine here, as while Orcs have the Strength and Guard to counter they do not have the ability to manoeuvre or re-position once committed so it can be useful once every other match, which at this sort of Tv is all amount maximising your increasing effect when stacked skilled in combination with reducing redundancy pitch wide.

Dauntless still is a poor skill compared to others you can take.

I feel Ma3 is fine in this situation and while I feel Matt would have a point in a Match maker style environment its not true for Division 2 of the OCC, seriously after fighting up from division 7 with 40 coaches a division with Division 2 & 3 having 2200k plus bash sides as the majority levelling a black orc for a point of movement is utterly Stupid!

I think it's utterly stupid keeping a MA 3 BOB, we are not talking about a MA 5, but a MA 3, heck, it's a Mummy's speed! As I said, if you don't fire soon a maimed played, you will take more time to build a new, efficient one.

Your black Orcs, need more skills not less! I can speak from experience on this being as I lost 3/4 of my experienced Tomb Guardians 2 seasons ago, and have added another 2-3 rookies to that pile since meaning I've been battling to get them developed since.

The important difference is that Tomb Guardians have AG 1 and no regular G skills, so they are a bit harder to skill up than BOB. Once a BOB gets Block he's fine and anyway Orcs don't lack Block as Khemri teams (4 Blitzers vs 2 Blitz-Ras)

2 Seasons I have achieved 2 level 2's - which is why I chose MB, going long term rather than the short for if I went with guard, I would win more games but they will never see another increase while I remain in Division 1-3 as the are too many Killers.

At high TV there are too many killers anyway, so aiming to skilling up BOBs is a bit utopic (not impossible, but not so necessary), just use them to win, your Blitzers are the real stars and damage dealers, at high TV BOBs are a sort of S4 Linemen.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

By the way redundancy is a good thing to have, not bad!

[crimsonsun]

By the way redundancy is a good thing to have, not bad!

Thats very situational. Some skills are very good to have in excess which I mentioned in my posts but others provide limited or situational benefit that having more than two of will instead become bloat and be far less than optimal. Generally I would say redundancy is good unless it becomes bloat at which point its poor use of development.

@Matt we will have to agree to disagree in some parts of this, though its largely subjective, you like the hits frenzy provides, while I dislike the lack of control it brings along with the fact it forces you to engage. I want my opponent to engage me not the other way around, thus limiting them to a single blitz and hugely reducing the effects of Claw. Get caught in a bash war with a Claw side and sooner or later even with the best build your going to get seriously hurt.

I prefer forcing them to engage me, yes it means they can set up there initial position and at least initially have control of the middle of the pitch but I can then respond to that which a second line, who not only bring support skills but also the ability to shift Side Steppers, Stand Firm, Fend etc. Also if my opponent has engaged then he will have only hit one player, now every other player of mine they engaged is now given a free hit on there squad. Worse is I make heavy use of skills like Grab and Juggs+frenzy to not only set up additional blocks but also to completely reposition the other team placing them where they can provide minimal support or are exposed and vulnerable.

With Killers Pro allows rerolling for disappointing non turn over blocks it will really ramp up there the players effectiveness without costing re-rolls which should be reserved for turn overs in my opinion. While Guard can be useful on a Killer at times personally I find it is utterly wasted, not only because it does nothing while your on the floor following a PO, but because I do not expose my Killers to retaliations if I can help it (another reason I dont like frenzy here as it forces your hand into engaging) instead if not Piling on they will move back safely nestled behind my blockers making Guard so rarely useful its a waste of Tv. That's not to say Guard is a bad choice its just not mine (GUARD is NEVER a BAD choice lets be honest!)

I fully agree Guard is a core skill for Orcs, 2 Blitzers, 4 Black Orcs, 1 Troll plus with any luck 1-2 line Orcs is Perfect! While I agree Dauntless would not be my first pick on a blitzer its not awful but anyway it was an accident anyway!

At high Tv there are a lot of Killers but for Orcs the only real scary ones are CPOMBers and these are not only rarer but also lacking in other essential killer skills most of the time and honestly if I look at a Chaos Nurgle roster and see loads of Kill skills I smile as should an Orc coach because it means they just do not have the control or positional skills to threaten you beyond a couple of sniping blitzes. In response your going to utterly ruin them as long as your patient and wait for there attack which when countered by clever pitch control skills and positioning will likely leave them up a creek without a paddle for the drive if not the match.

Overall though its good we disagree, if everyone build and designed teams to the same way it would be dull as hell! Even more so it provides to differing perspectives for Chris to consider, yours is a very aggressive in your face build (and I assume) play style that provides constant pressure and is really about hitting first and hardest. While I like to utilise pitch control to render opponents impotent and unable to execute there game plans.

[MattDakka]

@Matt we will have to agree to disagree in some parts of this, though its largely subjective, you like the hits frenzy provides, while I dislike the lack of control it brings along with the fact it forces you to engage.

Why does it force you to engage? I try to make a sniping blitz with my Blitzer.

I want my opponent to engage me not the other way around, thus limiting them to a single blitz and hugely reducing the effects of Claw. Get caught in a bash war with a Claw side and sooner or later even with the best build your going to get seriously hurt.

I tried the two approaches, the passive (waiting for the clawpombers to engage) and the aggressive (trying to bring many players in contact with the opponent players), so far the aggressive approach worked better than I expected.
The point is that, since clawpomb-heavy teams lack guard you can exploit this weakness by placing your Guards in a manner that will force the clawpomb team to advance in a not optimal way and let some of its players exposed to blocks the next turn, while if you allow too much freedom of movement by waiting the engaging the clawpomb team can simply snipe-blitz some of your players to gain a number advantage, once you have few players left they will be marked en masse and blocked.

I prefer forcing them to engage me, yes it means they can set up there initial position and at least initially have control of the middle of the pitch

I use a deep set up and this prevents at least one or two clawpomb blitzs. Not a great number, but since the clawpomb blitz is very dangerous each one you can avoid is gold.

With Killers Pro allows rerolling for disappointing non turn over blocks it will really ramp up there the players effectiveness without costing re-rolls which should be reserved for turn overs in my opinion.

Too bad that Pro works only 50% of times, not very efficient compared to Frenzy.

While Guard can be useful on a Killer at times personally I find it is utterly wasted, not only because it does nothing while your on the floor following a PO, but because I do not expose my Killers to retaliations if I can help it

You hit first with the other players and use the Killers with Guard to support (the sequence is not ever so simple, but what I mean is that Guard can be useful on a Piling On player as well), then, when you don't need anymore their Guard, you can block with them, Piling On prevents a good amount of retaliation.

(another reason I dont like frenzy here as it forces your hand into engaging) instead if not Piling on they will move back safely nestled behind my blockers

You can blitz and move back with Frenzy as well, it's a bit harder but not impossible. I Blitz and try to pile on, if I didn't knock down the target player I try to fail dodges and gfis on purpose to avoid retaliation.

At high Tv there are a lot of Killers but for Orcs the only real scary ones are CPOMBers and these are not only rarer

At high TV 3-4 clawpombers are not a rare occurrence.

a couple of sniping blitzes.

Blitzes that can easily KO or worse any of your AV 9 players, even a few clawpomb blitzes can spell doom for an Orc team, this said, it's not impossible to win against clawpomb.

yours is a very aggressive in your face build (and I assume) play style that provides constant pressure and is really about hitting first and hardest. While I like to utilise pitch control to render opponents impotent and unable to execute there game plans.

I think that passive (avoiding the starting blocks and blitz at kick off when kicking), then aggressive (putting a lot of my players suddenly in contact to force a less comfortable advance) summarizes quite well my approach.