BBRC Hot List - 2003

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:04 am

Thoughts about the online-offline community thing:

I've seen a number of leagues around here, and from many of those, no person actively participates or follows the online community, so in my POV they are representatives of the offline community.

However, I've seen most of those leagues copy-paste most of their extra rules directly from the established leagues represented in the web. Their commishes also use arguments for certain rules changes that they've found from the web. Sigurds' for example was something that everyone, even in the most desolate reaches of the country, used.

So. What I'm trying to say is that the offline community follows the online community. League commishes take many of their ideas from here and incorporate that into their leagues. Our opinions cascade into the offline community, which is why I think our opinions are a quite valid representative of the community as a whole.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:05 pm

Mestari wrote:So. What I'm trying to say is that the offline community follows the online community. League commishes take many of their ideas from here and incorporate that into their leagues. Our opinions cascade into the offline community, which is why I think our opinions are a quite valid representative of the community as a whole.

You realize this is spurious logic, don't you?

You are part of the online community. Everyone you know is one step away from being connected to the online community. It's very possible that everyone you talk to is affected by online opinion and vice versa, but what you aren't accounting for are the people who you don't know and will never meet. People outside your sphere of connections, who don't get online and who are insulated from the online community.

There are three major arguments that I've heard against using the online community as representative of the whole of Blood Bowl.

1. The percentage of people online is quite small when compared to the whole. TBB has just over 1000 members, but BB has sold 100,000 of copies. If this were a truely random selection of the community this wouldn't matter... but the community has certain characteristics in common that will affect it's opinions. (see #3)

2. The online community suffers from imbreeding of ideas. The decisions of the community are swayed by it's local politics and population. For example there were (are) those who liked JJ's 4th Edition. Two camps divided online and polorized, but was this representative of the whole of Blood Bowl? Probably not.

3. I'm not a demographics statistician so I can't define it exactly, but in order to become a member of the online community you have to have certain qualifications. I can't list all the qualifications, but one obvious example is that you would have to own a computer. The online community is probably older than the average BB player. These qualifications alter the way that the community views Blood Bowl and what it wants out of the game.

For the record, I'm playing devils advocate here. Polling the online community is an important and useful tool, but it's not tha same as polling the Blood Bowl community. One is a subset of the second.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:30 pm

Galak: Dave recently brought up a good one on the NAF site. When rolling for Fan Factor, do you count all casulties in the game, or only those that earned SPP's? I remember it was a point of contnetion in our league when the LRB came out, and it could use some clarification.

http://www.thenaf.net/modules.php?op=mo ... opic&t=287

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:39 pm

1. The percentage of people online is quite small when compared to the whole. TBB has just over 1000 members, but BB has sold 100,000 of copies. If this were a truely random selection of the community this wouldn't matter... but the community has certain characteristics in common that will affect it's opinions. (see #3)

Tho im sure u realize that is not to say there are nowhere near 100,000 bb players, personally i would doubt 50,000, how many have 1 of each version. The number is probably between 25k and 45k. How many follow tbb and do not join? Not to mention im amused by the list of BloodBowl tournament players, online vs offline. How many on tbb represent their whole leagues, and how many offline will a league have with an online rep? The bottom line is there is overlap between offline and online leagues due to the fact some leagues have no online people while others have 1 or more, with various levels of interest in the online stuff.

2. The online community suffers from imbreeding of ideas. The decisions of the community are swayed by it's local politics and population. For example there were (are) those who liked JJ's 4th Edition. Two camps divided online and polorized, but was this representative of the whole of Blood Bowl? Probably not.

In the f2f league i was in, we had little contact with the online community (pre tbb by a longshot), it was unanimous that 4th sucked, i had access to a completely seperate bb league and they agreed (that league also offline). I dont think 4th edition is a good way to say what u mean, offline leagues have the same inbreeding, with less interaction. The tbb scene is rife with conflict (i.e. Me, Pariah, Zombie, and others who disagree on regular occasions). There is no true online school of thot, new ideas, and arguments are created constantly. Very few (if any) of the notables on tbb have never changed their minds.

3. I'm not a demographics statistician so I can't define it exactly, but in order to become a member of the online community you have to have certain qualifications. I can't list all the qualifications, but one obvious example is that you would have to own a computer. The online community is probably older than the average BB player. These qualifications alter the way that the community views Blood Bowl and what it wants out of the game.

Mostly correct, tho ownership is not at all necessary, just access. Is the age thing a result of access or interest, i. e. are the younger bb players not interested in chatting/discussing it online (do they use the computer for something else?) or do the younger ones just not go online as much in general but would get into online bb if they could?

Lastly just how would u go about polling the entire bb community?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:11 pm

A lot of players in FUMBBL play online via internet cafes, I would say having access to the internet is the only requirement ;]

Whatever way you look at it, there will always be a counter arguement to whats valid and what isn't, unless you ask absolutly everyone you will always have a certain amount of inaccuracy of the demographic.

Corlus · Post by **Corlus** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:52 pm

Would I be considered part of the on-line or off-line community?
I usually check this site and GW's forum 3-4 times a day, but I rarely post anything. I take most of the ideas to the group I play with and we weigh the sides against each other and come to some agreement. I show them both sides of the issues, but I don't post my thoughts or my groups thoughts. We make our descisions based on your discussions without adding to the discussion.
I don't post often because every angle is usually represented by those who do post often. I would feel silly doing a "me too" post.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:02 pm

Well u could always come back later and tell how things turned out in your league from what we have proposed.

phil · Post by **phil** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:26 pm

wasn't every member of the bbrc with the exception of the gw employees a member in good standing of the milo's mailing list era online community?

not, of course, that that would matter at all...

and speaking of the mailing list, whattever happened to cele the ref and doug webber anyway?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:33 pm

Galak - thanks for putting the hot list together. Most of your ideas I support, but here are some comments:

Use of an Apothecary does not leave a player Prone on the pitch but instead puts him in Reserves (then simplify the rules so that an Apothecary can be used on crowd injuries or goblin fanatic heart attacks ... basically he works on them when they get carted to the dugout for any injury)

I really don't like this one. What about the tactical use of an apoth on a stun or KO? I think the apoth ought to be able to heal off the pitch injuries and they go into the reserves.

Cleaning up the text of the LRB to match the rulings made to date

How about get rid of the advanced rules section. Everyone I know starts off with the advanced rules (that's what I did when I started played 3rd ed). A lot of confusion comes because rules are dealt with in 2 places rather than 1.

My opinions on ageing I've posted elsewhere (drop it altogether, or failing that tweak the existing system).

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:19 pm

neoliminal wrote: You realize this is spurious logic, don't you?

Sort of, but there really is no offline community around here anymore. Except in the homes for the elderly.

>quote: 1. The percentage of people online is quite small when
>compared to the whole.

Do you have any data to back up this claim? I claim that a clear majority of the leagues have sufficient internet access to be influenced by the online community. To take ideas from there, agree with them and play according to them.

Sorry, but it seems to me that this is simply a tool to conveniently ignore the majoritys opinion using an imaginary, voiceless "majority" as a reason. No offense intended, but it's hard to imagine that the offline community would be as big as you claim, nor that it would have very different opinions.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:20 pm

phil wrote:wasn't every member of the bbrc with the exception of the gw employees a member in good standing of the milo's mailing list era online community?

not, of course, that that would matter at all...

and speaking of the mailing list, whattever happened to cele the ref and doug webber anyway?

Ach, the good old days...

I don't know about Cele the Ref but from what I've heard, Douglas got married and stopped playing BB. I heard that later on he's been busy with some "children" thingies

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:52 pm

Just FYI on this online community thingy. My league has 6 coaches, of which I am the only one who frequents the BB online community. I think that CyberHare's league is the same, he is the only one who goes online.

In my opinion, every tabletop league has at least one member who can be considered "online" - even if sporadically. Isn't there a GW Blood Bowl forum somewhere which has a lot of members?

-Balrog

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:28 am

Balrog wrote:Isn't there a GW Blood Bowl forum somewhere which has a lot of members?

-Balrog

Try http://www.bloodbowl.com

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:23 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Balrog wrote:Isn't there a GW Blood Bowl forum somewhere which has a lot of members?

-Balrog
Try http://www.bloodbowl.com

The question was rhetorical, sheesh... I once went to the WH40k forums and promptly left when after reading the top 10 topics there wasn't a single post that had proper grammar (for some reason this bugs me).

-Balrog

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:27 pm

I dunt kno wot u meen.