My 3d Printed miniatures.

[islandtrevor]

Hello all....
This is my first post to TFF and its going to be a bit of a long one so I hope you can bare with me. I am looking for feedback on a lot of things regarding the selling of my own 3d printed models.

My goal with selling these models is not to earn a living. I simply want to sell enough models to support making more models as it cost me money to get my test prints done ensuring quality. I am still a bit of a novice when it comes to 3d modeling so my work does not have the same extreme polish of others who do this professionally. The models I make have a more simplistic design as I personally like physical miniatures to be easy to mod so that I can have many more options in team composition.

I wont bore you all with any more details about myself right now and instead post a few picture of 3 models I designed. Sadly I do not own a decent camera so the quality of the pics is not great but they work for the purposes of this post.
This first pic is a simple size comparrison of a sample model vs the blood bowl 3rd edition (I think) box set thrower


The next two pics are a sample of 3 models I designed...An Amazon, human and coach. Please ignore the unfinished paint jobs.


and


Now that I have show a small sample of my work I would like to ask a few questions.

First.... cost....right now due to not owning an printer myself I outsource the printing of the models to a company called shapeways. They are not cheap. My question is ...Do you think $10 -$15 us is a fair price for a single model (depending on size) and a complete team of 16 (all uniquely posed with each position being represented by small changes in the overall design) costing 100-120 fair? What about an $18-20 us price tag on large monsters? These prices do not include shipping.

Second...design... At this time I model teams with a strongly unifying theme and show positions through the use of small changes in design, size, hair styles or posing. I do this because I personally have always wanted some teams to look more uniform and less ragtag (this is the original reason I began learning how to model for 3d printing 3 years ago). As a result the teams have a strong similarity between each model as exampled in this picture...


What I would like to know is if this type of modeling design choice (very similar models on a team) is something other find interesting or if they prefer every position and sometimes the same position to show more variety of design?

Third...single players vs teams... I have focused mostly on complete teams but I am wondering if you are more interested in one off models to represent star players?

Lastly...model size...As of right now I am printing models with a base 35mm height. This is slightly larger than many other miniatures out there. As the designs are purely digital I can adjust them to any size. Do you think that 35mm is a proper size or would you like to see other sizes?

Thank you so much for your time.

[Saebelsultan]

Alright, quick and easy...

Love the design of all three figures! Absolutly do and would love to see more of the Amazons. To your questions:

1. Pricing seems to me a bit over average. Not much, but a little. For a team/miniature I like I would pay for it.
2. Like the unifomity concept, but would like to see certain characteristcs in positions. Not by much, but should be visible.
3. Mostly teams for me.
4. Size, hmm... they look okay to me. Definitly not bigger.

Godd luck with your endeavor!

[theghr]

I really like them! Personally at those prices i would be more inclined to want to buy star players, but since they are very nice perhaps others would pay for a team. The question is, how many of them would. The teams seem unique enough, better than most if not all human teams which is a weak spot in the industry, amazons i'm simply not updated enough about.

[islandtrevor]

Alright, quick and easy...

Love the design of all three figures! Absolutly do and would love to see more of the Amazons. To your questions:

1. Pricing seems to me a bit over average. Not much, but a little. For a team/miniature I like I would pay for it.
2. Like the unifomity concept, but would like to see certain characteristcs in positions. Not by much, but should be visible.
3. Mostly teams for me.
4. Size, hmm... they look okay to me. Definitly not bigger.

Godd luck with your endeavor!

Thanks for the reply.

Sadly as for price I am kinda a slave to the pricing structure from shapeways. The prices I asked about actually only give me 1 dollar profit on each single miniature with teams giving me a profit of 10 bucks.

I have actually completed both of those teams (and 3 others from a time back). The amazons have the greatest design differences of all teams while the humans have the least. The amazon team was design with the concept of a caste society. Blitzers are the warriors and as such are larger and more muscular, the linewomen are the normal amazons, the throwers are the hunter gatherers of the tribe and the catchers are the youths who have now fallen into caste yet. I can post a link to the complete team if ya want but they are not for sale yet as I have not gotten test prints yet. And thanks for the comment on uniformity.

Teams...good to know.

Size, well 35mm is the base size with certain models going above or below that range based on concept....for example the amazon blitzers are actually 37mm while the catchers are 33mm. The seperate sizes fit the concept of the team. basically i am treating 35mm as a 6 foot real scale and adjusting models accordingly. I prefer the 35mm size range as well because it does allow me to make models that differ in size easier. Thanks for letting me know your opinion.

Again, thanks for the reply as I am trying to see if it is worth my time to actively pursue this.

[theghr]

Size... It sounds like they are Willy size which people quite often complains about. They often think getting a complete teams of him is all right(Although their opponent might have a smaller team), but that it is hard to mesh single players with their teams of more regular size.

[islandtrevor]

I really like them! Personally at those prices i would be more inclined to want to buy star players, but since they are very nice perhaps others would pay for a team. The question is, how many of them would. The teams seem unique enough, better than most if not all human teams which is a weak spot in the industry, amazons i'm simply not updated enough about.

Thank you for the reply. The human team is sadly on the pricey end as it is a full 17 models...including an ogre that is in the teams outfit. The amazons actually would only cost 90 (did my initial math wrong).

Keep in mind that these are just a sample of my work and not the entirety of it. And I am making more all the time.

I have yet to really dabble in the star players market I am currently working on a slayer concept to fit in with the amazons but it is not done. I have considered this as an option because it allows me to devote alot of time to a single model to really see what I can do.

Again, thanks for the reply every bit of information helps me decide how I want to proceed.

[islandtrevor]

Size... It sounds like they are Willy size which people quite often complains about. They often think getting a complete teams of him is all right(Although their opponent might have a smaller team), but that it is hard to mesh single players with their teams of more regular size.

One of my bigger concerns is scaling. One of the reasons (not the only reason) willy's are bigger is because he uses 3d modeling to design his models now. The slightly larger size makes it easier to get the massive and gorgeous detail he gets (far beyond what I am able to do). Its why I do my models in that scale as well.

But what is really nice is if there is a demand for models that are scaled more along the traditional 32mm its a simple resizing and re-uploading job to make them fit....one possibility is I could offer my models in both sizes. All it would cost to do so is a small amount of time (like 15mins for a complete team...tops). There is a slight drawback to a slightly smaller model. It takes a bit of a hit in detail....not a huge one mind you but if I ever do get to a level akin to willy then I might be forced to stop offering a smaller size. But thats years off and by then printers will be able to print much smaller.

Thanks alot for the reply. Its great to hear others thoughts on things as right now I only have my own opinions and that absolutely not enough information.

[Steam Ball]

One of my bigger concerns is scaling. One of the reasons (not the only reason) willy's are bigger is because he uses 3d modeling to design his models now. The slightly larger size makes it easier to get the massive and gorgeous detail he gets (far beyond what I am able to do). Its why I do my models in that scale as well.

You can get miniatures in "normal" size, from multiple brands, that are 3D and with lots of detail. And the detail is translated into the final model because the printers are different (not just due to better skill, even if that is part of the result too), and then those are cast in metal or resin.

[islandtrevor]

One of my bigger concerns is scaling. One of the reasons (not the only reason) willy's are bigger is because he uses 3d modeling to design his models now. The slightly larger size makes it easier to get the massive and gorgeous detail he gets (far beyond what I am able to do). Its why I do my models in that scale as well.

You can get miniatures in "normal" size, from multiple brands, that are 3D and with lots of detail. And the detail is translated into the final model because the printers are different (not just due to better skill, even if that is part of the result too), and then those are cast in metal or resin.

I think you misread my post, I said it was easier, not that it was impossible. I also said it was just one of the reason to go with the 35mm size.

It is possible at this time to print in extreme detail in almost any size from huge to microscopic. The problem is if it is cost effective. To get access to the highest detail level the cost becomes prohibative for selling a hobby item that is not injection molded with costs reaching upwards of 100 per model.

At this time the best bang for buck when using a 3rd party printing service (as I do) is multijet prints. It only offers a 15 micron definition level. While this may seem like extreme detail it is no where near what is possible right now. Some printers are able to print in levels as small as .05 microns, this type of printer is what was used on some of the delicate medical printing being done now.

So while it is possible to get almost any amount of detail level at almost any scale one has to look at the actual cost for doing so. I can actually print my models as small as 10mm tall but the hit to the detail level is massive with the current company I use. As I said, I could easily resize the models I make to between 28-32mm with minimal detail loss. Thus far I have not as I personally like the 35mm size. That is why I asked how other feel about the size of my models.

I could go on and on about the 3d printing process in relation to my models and other companies, discussing current and near release printers (I have done extensive research as I am close to getting my own printer) but that is not why I posted my questions. I want to know what others are looking for in regards to miniatures.

[Chris]

The resizing is interesting. My view is that it isn't a straight make all proportions equally smaller. Larger scales let you do things that are too fragile in smaller scales - outstretched fingers for example. Also models tend to exaggerate some details, as in not everything on the model is the same scale (ghq do it all the time on their tanks).

How do you think scaling down your models has turned out?

Also remember not all humans are the same hight but when we get bigger or smaller not all proportions change!

[Steam Ball]

Shapeways operates at 16 micron for the best axis in the best they can offer (wax), next best is 29 (FUD). Then they selfcripple themselves with poor orientation choices and poor QA, like random from day to day. And shop owner experience has been a bumpy ride, with recent sudden change in one material range that killed the viability of a bunch of products (and making SW not very trustable long term, based in how they handled it). Last year or so has painted a bleak picture.

If you don't want to hold any stock or provide wholesale, yes, they are of the few options. If not, companies are selling better models for less, in resin or metal. Personally I don't see a reason to pay more than the other production methods, for something worse (the strong materials they have are the ones with even less detail, the high detail ones don't seem to have any lasting warranty), hard to fit on a game board because they are bigger, and then get hit by customs and their shipping agency.

I am not telling you to don't do it, but that the are other means with better outcomes as soon as there is some volume. If you don't mind recovering the money from tests, which seems to common there (yearly reports have become more and more vague as time passed), go for it.

[islandtrevor]

The resizing is interesting. My view is that it isn't a straight make all proportions equally smaller. Larger scales let you do things that are too fragile in smaller scales - outstretched fingers for example. Also models tend to exaggerate some details, as in not everything on the model is the same scale (ghq do it all the time on their tanks).

How do you think scaling down your models has turned out?

Also remember not all humans are the same hight but when we get bigger or smaller not all proportions change!

First a bit of info (for those who dont know these things...the rest can skip it).

Most miniature are designed in one of three styles....heroic, realistic and blended.
Heroic is the GW style for the large part....models of this type have exaggerated heads, hands, weapons ect. They do not have human proportions.
Realistic is the opposite....they try to keep everything in a realistic human scale. WW2 games favor this style.
Blended style is as implied...a mix of the two. This is how I design my models. Slight exaggeration where needed to get the desired look.

When I scale down my models I have not had any real issues until I get below 30mm. What I mean is its a simple resizing. When I start going below 30mm I have to start tweaking the models or many things become difficult to print or worse yet snap off easily after printing. Going from 35mm to 32mm is almost unnoticable unless the models are side by side. When you do a side by side comparison you can see the difference in detail, especially in areas like the face or armor embossing. When alone the 32mm models are fine. The 32 or smaller models can be altered to have those details show up better after printing but thats a major endeavor not a simple resizing as you need to manipulate the models on a polygon level (its actually more complicated than that but dont want to get sidetracked). In regards to things like outstretched fingers.....the coach figure in the picture above is actually the second version of the model. The first was much more simplistic in design but it still had the outstretched finger. The one above is 38mm but the original was on 30mm and the finger is still there much as it is in the new one.
Simple global scaling is usually more than enough for a model.

One of the fantastic things about 3d models is that once you get a model done for a position you can just pose it how you want. This allows you to have a perfectly uniform design for all of the linemen. By using the same model with differing poses (including facial expressions) you can save MASSIVE amounts of time and still provide a team with good variety. You can further enhance this variety by using small addons parts designed for the model such as multiple hair styles, bracers, armor emossing ect. Another way to offer more variety is what is called global scaling....basically just increasing/decreasing the size of a specific model in all directions.

On my human team I did this with the blitzers as I wanted the uniform they wear to be the same but still wanted them to look different than the linemen and I did not want to give them knuckledusters or punchers to show this difference. For the Amazons I made the blitzers much larger than the linemen but I also made them more muscular. For the human team I used the exact same model and just added some big gloves to get the blitzers but on the amazons I had to make a new model. As a result I spent considerably more time on the amazons than I did on the human. The amazons were designed off and on over a 2 year period until I was happy with them. The human were done less than a month. I do not have exact times for how long I actually spent on the amazons but the humans I spent a total of 68 hours and some change (this includes the time I spent after getting my test print and fixing the small things I wanted to fix for the full design).

So while I could sit and design each model with a specific scale in mind and make each model very unique it does take alot longer to do so. Even if I was to just change certain proportions of each model it would take up alot of time. This is one of the questions I asked....if I should be making each model more unique or if the uniform style is something people like. For the most part the teams being produced have a vast array of differences between miniatures...not only between positions but in the same position. I personally want my team to look a bit more like a team and save the unique miniature for the star players. If I am in the minority on this thinking I would like to know so I can decide if I want to continue down that path or go the more common route.'

Thanks alot of the reply....and I hope I didnt get to long winded in my response.

[islandtrevor]

Shapeways operates at 16 micron for the best axis in the best they can offer (wax), next best is 29 (FUD). Then they selfcripple themselves with poor orientation choices and poor QA, like random from day to day. And shop owner experience has been a bumpy ride, with recent sudden change in one material range that killed the viability of a bunch of products (and making SW not very trustable long term, based in how they handled it). Last year or so has painted a bleak picture.

If you don't want to hold any stock or provide wholesale, yes, they are of the few options. If not, companies are selling better models for less, in resin or metal. Personally I don't see a reason to pay more than the other production methods, for something worse (the strong materials they have are the ones with even less detail, the high detail ones don't seem to have any lasting warranty), hard to fit on a game board because they are bigger, and then get hit by customs and their shipping agency.

I am not telling you to don't do it, but that the are other means with better outcomes as soon as there is some volume. If you don't mind recovering the money from tests, which seems to common there (yearly reports have become more and more vague as time passed), go for it.

First, I want to say that I have never had an issue with Shapeways prints....in 3 years (been using them that long) not once. Any problems with prints have always been in my design and not their QA.
Second the material I exclusivly use from them frosted ultra detail...or FUD is printed in such a way that orientation is not nearly the concern it is with other materials. There is also ways around any issue without much effort (for example designing the sprue in which the models come in such a way as the orientation does not matter).
Third The only time I have ever broken a model I have gotten in FUD was when I stepped on it. I wont say the material is as strong as injection molding but it is nowhere as brittle as some make it out to be.
Lastly the doom saying. That entire situation was blown WAY out of proportion by those affected and has since been largely resolved. I do not know if you were the ones affected by it or not but this is not the place to discuss it regardless of your personal opinions of Shapeways.

Shapeways guidlines are the 16 and 30 microns but the machines they use are capable of going down to 5 microns....they have printed stuff for me in that detail level and the difference is noticable but not so much as to make the cost worthwhile. I stick with FUD as it provides a very smooth and detailed model at the best price out there. By sacrificing a small amount (almost unnoticable) of detail I could use a personal printer like the Form1 or the B9 and be able to produce models for a fraction of what it costs me to have shapeways do it. The B9 is also able to create mold ready models so if I wanted I could make my own molds for production. My rough estimates bring the cost of using these resin printers down to about 1-1.50 a model....canadian. To do so I need to get the machine which costs between 3 and 5 grand.... money I do not have.

Please do NOT suggest a crowdfunding....thats an entire area that has more pitfalls than positives for someone at my level.

To get molds made for production the cheapest I have found is $800 startup.....per team.... in the long run the cost of injection molding is cheaper BUT....and this is a big but... it does me absolutely no good to have 50 copies of a team yet sell 1. I have also contacted distibuters like Impact to try and make use of their 'are you a sculptor' program but as of that time they do not make molds of printed models. Even if I did go the mold route....everything now rests on my shoulders. Shipping, customer service, packaging ect...I have to do it all. This was never intended to be a career as I said before....I only have two reasons for selling my models...vanity (how cool is it that someone uses my models in a tourny somewhere)...and to support the cost of making more teams. Any kind of profit would be funneled back into either test prints on new designs or into the purchase of my own machine.

So while I appreciate the suggestions I really have done my homework on this and know that for my needs shapeways is my best option at this time. That is why I asked the specific questions I asked and didnt ask what people thought of my distribution (or even link to it).

Thanks for replying and I hope you keep following the thread.

[petitgars]

1. For me, MAX 100 € /team (16 players, including a big one and shipping. It is psychologic). MAX 4 € a single player, 10€ a starplayer, 15€ a big one. Be careful to the existing teams: if your miniatures are more expensive than alternatives, it would be difficult. Look willy/gaspez/impact. (RN studios is too expensive for me).

2. Like the unifomity concept, but would like to see certain characteristcs in positions. Not by much, but should be visible => agree. The most difficult is to differenciate blitzers/linemen (for exemple: it is a problem in GW BB dark elves). For linemen, a vicious or a kicker is cool add ons.

3. Depend on price. If expensive price, i do not buy a team. And i don't buy a single miniature if it can fit with a team, except for starplayers / add on miniatures (babes, public, coachs. Starplayer = no problem of size = no problem of "team spirit". But starplayer = 1 mini /sell = shipping cost, and a lot of work on packaging.
Little things (reroll/turn counters, ballon, ... are a great add).

4. Size too tall for me; i prefer 28-32 mm, except for the starplayer.

(Sorry, it is not cool, but i prefer to be honest).

5. Your coach si very cool. Few miniatures in this style. In the 3 miniatures: coach> human>>amazone

(sorry for the english)

[islandtrevor]

1. For me, MAX 100 € /team (16 players, including a big one and shipping. It is psychologic). MAX 4 € a single player, 10€ a starplayer, 15€ a big one. Be careful to the existing teams: if your miniatures are more expensive than alternatives, it would be difficult. Look willy/gaspez/impact. (RN studios is too expensive for me).

2. Like the unifomity concept, but would like to see certain characteristcs in positions. Not by much, but should be visible => agree. The most difficult is to differenciate blitzers/linemen (for exemple: it is a problem in GW BB dark elves). For linemen, a vicious or a kicker is cool add ons.

3. Depend on price. If expensive price, i do not buy a team. And i don't buy a single miniature if it can fit with a team, except for starplayers / add on miniatures (babes, public, coachs. Starplayer = no problem of size = no problem of "team spirit". But starplayer = 1 mini /sell = shipping cost, and a lot of work on packaging.
Little things (reroll/turn counters, ballon, ... are a great add).

4. Size too tall for me; i prefer 28-32 mm, except for the starplayer.

(Sorry, it is not cool, but i prefer to be honest).

5. Your coach si very cool. Few miniatures in this style. In the 3 miniatures: coach> human>>amazone

(sorry for the english)

Price is the one area I have the least control yet it seems to be the biggest issue with people buying anything I make. There is just no way I can match actual companies costs. If that proves to be the deciding factor for the majority of people then I will just not bother and go back to just making models for myself. I honestly do not have a better option for production in my current situation.

As I said, those are just a sample of the models I have made. Most of my work does have a strong difference between positions that is easy to spot across a table even so much that positions are fairly easy to figure without being told. With the use of small changes to the base model like size, small costume changes, hair, posing and detailing the positions are not hard to understand.

Well, as I said I have limited options for model cost at this time. I have made some sideline models, three cheerleader and the coach with an apoth, ref and turn/reroll/score markers in the works. The problem is the price will not change, they will be more expensive than a professional company. I was hoping that the relative rarity and my specific designs might sway people to spend more.

Dont worry bout my feelings. If you like smaller models than me then you like them. As this is a form of art personal opinions of design are never right or wrong....Like I said, my models can be reduced in size. A benefit of them being smaller is they cost less. As an example, I made a team for myself in a 35mm scale with some sideline and the coach....it cost me $170 bucks. A friend liked them but did not want them that big so I reduced the size and he was able to get everything for $130 (including shipping). Its why I am considering offering them in alternate sizes.

Thanks for the reply and thanks very much for the compliment on my models.