Ball & Chain with 'Block' Skill

[Bakunin]

Following from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=35282

"1) determinate the direction of the move,
2) make the move (including block if necessary)
3) then roll the GFI dice and, if failed, fall on the new square : bye-bye Ball & chain."

But what happens when the ball&chain has the block skill under 2) ?
The Ball&Chain tries to move into a enemy player, throw block dice, chooses 'both down' and knocks down the player..

In that situation I would rule that, no, the ball&chain has not "moved [a] extra square" and has therefore not successfully taken a GFI. It may again try to GFI.

But the same must go for normal MV with a 'block' ball&chain?

[sann0638]

I was thinking about this today. I think the wording of the skill needs tightening up, basically. Job #1 for the Specialist Design Studio!

[dode74]

I would liken it to a Blitz Action (I know it's not one, but bear with me...), whereby the block itself costs 1 point of movement regardless of whether you follow up. Seems to be a similar case despite the fact that a Blitz Action would involve making the GFI first.

It's an interesting one, certainly.

[Regash]

Ball & Chain (Extraordinary)
Players armed with a Ball & Chain can only take Move Actions. To move or Go For It, place the throw-in template over the player facing up or down the pitch or towards either sideline. Then roll a D6 and move the player one square in the indicated direction; no Dodge roll is required if you leave a tackle zone. If this movement takes the player off the pitch, he is beaten up by the crowd in the same manner as a player who has been pushed off the pitch. Repeat this process for each and every square of normal movement the player has. You may then GFI using the same process if you wish. If during his Move Action he would move into an occupied square then the player will throw a block following normal blocking rules against whoever is in that square, friend or foe (and it even ignores Foul Appearance!). A Prone or Stunned player in an occupied square is pushed back and an Armour roll is made to see if he is injured, instead of the block being thrown at him. The player must follow up if he will push back another player, and will then carry on with his move as described above. If the player is ever Knocked Down or Placed Prone, roll immediately for injury (no Armour roll is required). Stunned results for any Injury rolls for the Ball & Chain player are always treated as KO’d. A Ball & Chain player may use the Grab skill (as if a Block Action was being used) with his blocks (if he has learned it!). A Ball & Chain player may never use the Diving Tackle, Frenzy, Kick-Off Return, Leap, Pass Block or Shadowing skills.

Marked the important part in green.

Following the normal block rules would mean that yes, choosing both down will stop the B&C player in his tracks but preventing him from going down.

The player must follow up if he will push back another player, and will then carry on with his move as described above.

IF he will push back. But he didn't!

[dode74]

Depends on whether you interpret the subclause as part of the conditional or not, I guess. I'm wavering on that one...

[Darkson]

If it doesn't count as a GFI then you can get the unlikely (but possible) situation where the B&C is surrounded by 8 Block players and could hit them indefinitely until he skulls, pushes or pows.

[babass]

If it doesn't count as a GFI then you can get the unlikely (but possible) situation where the B&C is surrounded by 8 Block players and could hit them indefinitely until he skulls, pushes or pows.

actually needed only 3 players... (let say all 3 "north")
nothing would force this b&C to choose another "direction" than north, in such case

[Regash]

If it doesn't count as a GFI then you can get the unlikely (but possible) situation where the B&C is surrounded by 8 Block players and could hit them indefinitely until he skulls, pushes or pows.

Yep, if he always rolls both down results, that is what happens.
Still whirling around but not able to break out.

[Bakunin]

I think the wording of the skill needs tightening up, basically. Job #1 for the Specialist Design Studio!

This..

I would liken it to a Blitz Action (I know it's not one, but bear with me...), whereby the block itself costs 1 point of movement regardless of whether you follow up.

But a ball&chain dont blitz, its moves - its that simple (even if its goes against blood bowl common-sense)..

I dont see anything in the ball&chain skill rule, that says that it spends mv points, when it doesn't move a square...

.. So yes, a goblin ball&chain with block, could take 15 players without block off the pitch - if they are all stacked 3x5 'north'

[rolo]

.. So yes, a goblin ball&chain with block, could take 15player without block off the pitch - if they are all stacked 3x5 'north'

Only 11 of those can be opposing players though. He could take out a 12th teammate by rolling block dice and choosing both-down, but that would be a turnover.

I don't think it's a turnover to smash a prone teammate on the ground - but that pushes the teammate back and costs movement.

[Vanguard]

If it doesn't count as a GFI then you can get the unlikely (but possible) situation where the B&C is surrounded by 8 Block players and could hit them indefinitely until he skulls, pushes or pows.

Yep, if he always rolls both down results, that is what happens.
Still whirling around but not able to break out.

I don't agree with that. The rule is quite explicit that it takes a square of movement to initiate the block. The fact that the player doesn't actually get to move due to a both down result is irrelevant.

[Regash]

I don't agree with that. The rule is quite explicit that it takes a square of movement to initiate the block. The fact that the player doesn't actually get to move due to a both down result is irrelevant.

You're probably right on that one.
Even the GFI have to be declared BEFORE you do anything, even if the GFI roll comes at the end of the action.
My mistake.

[Bakunin]

The rule is quite explicit that it takes a square of movement to initiate the block.

I would like to see that quote

[Regash]

The rule is quite explicit that it takes a square of movement to initiate the block.

I would like to see that quote

Ball & Chain (Extraordinary)
Players armed with a Ball & Chain can only take Move Actions. To move or Go For It, place the throw-in template over the player facing up or down the pitch or towards either sideline. Then roll a D6 and move the player one square in the indicated direction; no Dodge roll is required if you leave a tackle zone. If this movement takes the player off the pitch, he is beaten up by the crowd in the same manner as a player who has been pushed off the pitch. Repeat this process for each and every square of normal movement the player has. You may then GFI using the same process if you wish. If during his Move Action he would move into an occupied square then the player will throw a block following normal blocking rules against whoever is in that square, friend or foe (and it even ignores Foul Appearance!). A Prone or Stunned player in an occupied square is pushed back and an Armour roll is made to see if he is injured, instead of the block being thrown at him. The player must follow up if he will push back another player, and will then carry on with his move as described above. If the player is ever Knocked Down or Placed Prone, roll immediately for injury (no Armour roll is required). Stunned results for any Injury rolls for the Ball & Chain player are always treated as KO’d. A Ball & Chain player may use the Grab skill (as if a Block Action was being used) with his blocks (if he has learned it!). A Ball & Chain player may never use the Diving Tackle, Frenzy, Kick-Off Return, Leap, Pass Block or Shadowing skills.

Marked the important part in red.
So for each square MA plus max 2 or 3 (if Sprint skill) squares, one roll on the throw-in-template.
Therefore, it's the max no. of Blocks that can be thrown, if each entered square is occupied by a standing opponent.

Goblin Fanatic has 3|7|3|7, meaning he makes 3 normal squares plus 2 GFI equals 5 blocks at the max.

[Bakunin]

So for each square MA plus max 2 or 3 (if Sprint skill) squares, one roll on the throw-in-template.
Therefore, it's the max no. of Blocks that can be thrown, if each entered square is occupied by a standing opponent.

Goblin Fanatic has 3|7|3|7, meaning he makes 3 normal squares plus 2 GFI equals 5 blocks at the max.

But now you are reading something out of the text, thats not there.. Nowhere does it say that, when trying to move into a enemy player, and if you dont move that square, you still pay 1 point of mv... Blood Bowl common-sense may say you do beacuse of the blitz action, but this would be worng based on how the rules are written (ball&chain dont blitz).

The only thing under the skill rule, that could close this, lets say "block-ball&chain-loophole" is: "The player must follow up if he will push back another player, and will then carry on with his move as described above."

and thats by ruling that the 2nd sentence is depended on the 1st sentence. you dont get to carry on with your mv, because you didn't follow-up. But this is a highly normative ruling and neglects that the 2nd sentence starts with a "and", and that its clear that the ball&chain "[must move] every square of normal movement the player has."