Why ClawPOMB is broken

[Bakunin]

3) we played with cpomb in [a tabletop] league and saw it as a problem.

This.

[GalakStarscraper]

I get individual opinion ... but we have no league commissioners yet coming forward in that thread to specifically address this to say it was an acknowledged issues.

It is normal for rules to have individual opponents. The question being said was on league views ... not that of individuals.

[Glowworm]

I get individual opinion ... but we have no league commissioners yet coming forward in that thread to specifically address this to say it was an acknowledged issues.

It is normal for rules to have individual opponents. The question being said was on league views ... not that of individuals.

Im a league commissioner and we don't "house rule" CPoMB at all, it is only a smallish league 16-20 coaches a season, split into divisions so you get 8-10 matches a season, teams can take part in 3 seasons and its never been a problem for us.... just to add we do a semi random MVP where you pick 6 players and your opponent rolls a D6 for who gets the MVP, so CD's and Chaos can skill quite quickly, however as I said, not an issue.

[Oventa]

Oventa .. was your league a tabletop league? Just curious

Curiosity needs to be fed: actually it was online, but I think that is irrelevant for this topic. The number of people involved, the league setup/mode/team resets matter, group dynamics (opinion on fouling e.g.), but not if played online or tabletop.

And regarding your other point you are right.
I don't see a significant number of league commissioners coming forward saying they tried it and found it to be an issue. Just did not want to leave it like there is no option 3 at all. That's all.

[VoodooMike]

Curiosity needs to be fed: actually it was online, but I think that is irrelevant for this topic.

It's relevant for what you were opting to reply to, as it was referring to a specific thread about tabletop leagues.

The people who claim CPOMB is somehow "broken" are almost always saying the rules of the game need to be changed, and one of the main responses is that the only people who seem to find it broken are online players... and that unless these "broken" issues are appearing in all play environments we shouldn't be altering the rules to suit one subset of Blood Bowl players.

Now, lets assume your online league IS worth considering - you're saying YOU feel its an issue, but clearly your league and/or league commissioner do not or you'd have houseruled the issue away. That's no doubt why the thread in question asks not for the poster's opinion or feelings, but for their overall league consensus on the topic.

3) we played with cpomb in [a tabletop] league and saw it as a problem.

This.

Woops, looks like you again made up "facts" Bakunin, as he did not, in fact, play it in a tabletop league. Maybe you should let the grown-ups do the talking and go back to your tinker toys?

[voyagers_uk]

Oventa please can you add your league to my thread in General Chat

That is what VM was referring to

[GalakStarscraper]

Oventa please can you add your league to my thread in General Chat

That is what VM was referring to

Voyagers ... your thread said tabletop ... are you changing the data source?

[voyagers_uk]

Ah no reception on the train meant I missed where he said online

Tabletop only

[Regash]

What I don't understand...
WHY would it be an issue with online players while it's not with tabletop?

[VoodooMike]

What I don't understand...
WHY would it be an issue with online players while it's not with tabletop?

Volume of play and style of play I would imagine. The longer the timeline for an environment and the more games you can play with a single team, the more important the long-term effects of anything become. This includes SPP gain and attrition rates - anything that contributes to a team's ability to gain and maintain team value.

Tabletop leagues that are very active will usually, at the very most, be playing one or two matches per week per person... often quite a bit less. Active online environments might see two or three games per day per person... so online play is far more likely to demonstrate issues in long-term development than tabletop play is.

The issue that I (and others who are opposed to CPOMB changes) have with modifying the rules to suit that long-term development play is that it involves changing skills that are present and do have an effect on all environments, including those that do not experience problems related to long-term play, all to suit long-term play environments. Teams like Chaos are already kind'v crappy at winning games even in long-term environments so changing the skills is a nerf to teams that already perform in a mediocre way in all environments simply to curb a problem that exists in a small subset of environments.

The logical assumption is that the problem is the uneven application of development factors (positive and negative) across an infinite play field.. If you have a 5% advantage over me then the overall effect is going to depend on how many games we play. If we play 10 games it probably won't mean anything. If we play 10,000 games it'll probably be monstrously obvious. Blood Bowl already has things in place to limit maximum development (such as spiraling expenses) which handles the long-term difference in how quickly rosters gain TV... but there is nothing in place to handle the difference in which the rosters LOSE TV, or more precisely, the difference in which certain rosters make other teams lose TV. TV is not lost in a slow and gradual fashion like it is gained, it is lost in big chunks.

So, by the theory that uneven attrition rates drive the shape of unlimited matchmaker environment demographics we should expect to see an abundance of bash teams at higher TV levels, and of the bash teams, the rosters best suited for beating bash teams without suffering attrition... and amazingly enough that is exactly what we see. Bash heavy high TV levels, with teams that have Claw access (the ultimate anti-bash skill) dominating them.

For oventa's league we note that it's not the league or commish that find CPOMB to be an issue, either... just oventa's own feel. With the low-volume play leagues differential attrition rates will likely never be an objective or even justifiably subjective issue.

[GalakStarscraper]

VM ... I know you can be course at times but d&mn that was really well written. Seriously made me wish for a like button.

[Bakunin]

I get individual opinion ... but we have no league commissioners yet coming forward in that thread to specifically address this to say it was an acknowledged issues.

It is normal for rules to have individual opponents. The question being said was on league views ... not that of individuals.

Well im a league commissioner and I and others in my league find it broken. Once you got clawpomb, is was a winning Strategy, with no real on-pitch counter.
I also play in a other league that used CRP+/NTBB, partly because clawpomb is viewed as overpowered. We have gone back to CRP, because we trying to recuit new players and find it easier to do with the standard rules.
(both are tabletop)

[Bakunin]

Woops, looks like you again made up "facts" Bakunin, as he did not, in fact, play it in a tabletop league. Maybe you should let the grown-ups do the talking and go back to your tinker toys?

You get that the inserted bracket was my doing, as in the sentence would be more clear with that insert. As in I play in tabletop leagues where people find clawpomb overpowered/broken. And not a comment what Oventa has experienced.
But anyways douchebag, go fcuk yourself.

[sedobrengocce]

150 matches played in my League last season and no CPOMB problem.
Already started new season, about 50 matches already played and still no CPOMB problem.

[straume]

Objective fact: The killstack gives a 58% chance of depitching.

Subjective assessment of that fact: At late game TV (once you get to CPOMB) you start to play differently (ie: worse). Less emphasis on positioning. The 58% is so juicy that you emphasize more on getting a blitz with one of your killer pieces on "someone". It is a different, and to me, a less interesting game.

Is this a problem? Well, for many TT-leagues CPOMB seldom enters play at all. For Fumbbl-BlackBox? Probably, but who cares? That is a special environment. For perpetual online leagues, such as OCC? Perhaps a little bit.