Wich is better in long term

[neverdodge]

Of the two you named, wood elves are easily the best. It can easily be seen by the mere cost of their players. The more the players cost, the better they are. Long term, once you've had time to buy all your positional players, wood elves rule the field.

and what if they got a death streak ?

[Zombie]

Doesn't matter, cause wood elves can win even when playing 8 against 16.

[los_locos]

Wood elf are the best scoring team of bloodbowl, so I would agree with Zombie here, even with 8-9 players they can win a game easily!!!!

________________
LOCO

[Longshot]

yep, but what is the great advantage of WE against skaven?
AG4?
dont really believe it even if i love them.
Look at this
Skavens have access to strengh skills with storm Vermin (no one on a WE team does)
Gutter Runner are quite the same than WE catchers (with cath less)
Thrower have AG less but they mostly do short pass and Hand off.
And all the line have access to mutations!
That is the really 'Long term' advantage that they have upon WE.
Scoring at 8 is not a long term advantage cos they can do it anytime. but skaven too! (Gutter runners).
And Ian is right about the cost, it is important in long term.
Skavens anytime!

[Flyin' Fling]

I think they're close enough not the distinction falls largely on coaching skills.

I've never coached WE, and am not really planning to, but I do coach skaven, in fumbbl.

And after 37 games, I'm running into a a bit of trouble that my High elves don't have (also with 37 games under their belt). I know HE aren't WE, but still. closest comparison I can make.

dead of linefodder. seems to be the problem, for me.

My HE survive, thanks to blodge, I think. My skaven speedbumbs don't. they get block, at most, then they die. and I can't replace them fast enough.

Skaven linos stand and get slaughtered in the later stages, elven linos dodge out and score more often.

Elves live a little longer, skaven are more fun.

of course, I might be wrong.

[Zombie]

yep, but what is the great advantage of WE against skaven?
AG4?

Wood elf line-elves are the same as skaven linerats except for AG4, access to agility and no access to mutations. Here, the woodies are clearly the winners.

Wardancers vs storm vermins, there's no contest. Wardancers are easily the best blitzers in the game.

Wood elf throwers, compared to skaven throwers, have +1AG, no sure hands, acess to agility and no access to mutations. Again, the elves are the clear winners.

Wood elf catchers are identical to gutter runners except that they have catch and no access to mutations. Here, it's a little closer, but i believe wood elf catchers to be superior because they start off better.

Both teams' big guy is crap and can screw them as much as help them, so there's not much point comparing them.

The only real diadvantage that wood elves have over skaven is that they cost more, but in the very long term, cost is hardly a factor. That's why skaven are better in the short term but woodies are better in the long term.

[bio]

amen

[sean newboy]

Wood elf throwers, compared to skaven throwers, have +1AG, no sure hands, acess to agility and no access to mutations. Again, the elves are the clear winners.

I say even. With big hand and sure hands a skaven thrower can literally pick a ball up anywhere, even in 7 tz (8 if the thrower had leap) on a 2+ regardless of weather. With 2 throwers sooner or later 1 will get a double. Certainly in the 2 teams and 20 or so games with them i havent failed to get it on at least 1.
Only other point i disagree with is that with the current rules i dont believe that Rat Ogres are crap, weak perhaps (gameplay wise) but not crap, certainly better than Treemen. I havent met a treeman yet i couldnt spend at least 1/2 the game or more avoiding completely or slapping around (the 2nd possibility with lizzies).

[Longshot]

Wood elf line-elves are the same as skaven linerats except for AG4, access to agility and no access to mutations. Here, the woodies are clearly the winners.

=>i dont see where this is a so big advantage, Dodge is usefull nut i dont see a lot of Line with Dodge, leap, surefeet...But linerat take mutations each time they can. Mutations are very good. I will not make the list but there are all great.

Wardancers vs storm vermins, there's no contest. Wardancers are easily the best blitzers in the game.

We are talking about long terms here! Put a Tacle on a WD will make him down and AR7.. Not that storm vermin are that powerfull but they can take easily guard to put some strengh in the skav team! not WE...

Wood elf throwers, compared to skaven throwers, have +1AG, no sure hands, acess to agility and no access to mutations. Again, the elves are the clear winners.

That is ok, mutations are not very usefull for throwers. but do skavens play long pass? i doubt it. But WE are better here.

Wood elf catchers are identical to gutter runners except that they have catch and no access to mutations. Here, it's a little closer, but i believe wood elf catchers to be superior because they start off better.

They start off better, but they will never be better than a gutter with Horns..for example, ask Marcus.Mutations give them in 'Long term' a little more effectiveness

Both teams' big guy is crap and can screw them as much as help them, so there's not much point comparing them.

Not agree at all on this one. Evolved Rat Ogre are so good! much more than Treeman.

The only real diadvantage that wood elves have over skaven is that they cost more, but in the very long term, cost is hardly a factor. That's why skaven are better in the short term but woodies are better in the long term.

Have to disagree again, Money is a factor of Long term of course! not that We will have so much more deas players but some.
I mean, the real challenge beetween this two team is clear for me.
If we take 2 good coaches (that would means that the skaven coach succeed in giving spp to his linerats, that is important) then will long term story, and skill roll, Skaven would make the difference because of some tacle (easy to take) and some mutations!

[Zombie]

If skaven can "easily" take mutations (i.e. on doubles), then wood elves can just as easily take guard. So that point in favor of storm vermins becomes moot.

I could agree that gutter runners are pretty equal to wood elf catchers (maybe even superior in the long term) thanks to mutations and that skaven throwers are almost equal to wood elf throwers thanks to big hand.

However, line-elves are clearly superior, not because of access to agility (access to mutations is just as good), but because of AG4. And wardancers are clearly superior to gutter runners; i really don't feel that i even have to give justification for this claim because it's not even close.

And i still believe that rat ogres are pretty weak, almost as weak as treemen.

Finally, i'd like to add that wood elves are the team i've played most often throughout my blood bowl career, and skaven come third (orc being second). I must have played wood elves in at least 4 or 5 different leagues, and skaven in 2 or 3. Though this doesn't make me an expert on the subject, it does mean that i at least vaguely know what i'm talking about!

[Longshot]

Zombie, i never said that you never played them
it was only my opinion on the subject.
and even if i prefer WE, it would be easy to put all on Agility.
My theory would be: We are clearly better for 'anyone' because they are more easy to play with AG4 and commun skills.
But skavens could be better in good hands that know how to use mutations.

[DoubleSkulls]

However, line-elves are clearly superior, not because of access to agility (access to mutations is just as good), but because of AG4. And wardancers are clearly superior to gutter runners; i really don't feel that i even have to give justification for this claim because it's not even close.

Yes but there is a huge price difference. WD cost 50% more than GR's. Line elves nearly 50% more than line rats. Of course they are better players.

But, IMO, this is the downfall of WE. There players cost so much its difficult to get (and keep) a large enough squad to survive in the long run. Rats, with cheaper replacements, can recover from bad games more easily.

TR 200 Wood Elves will almost certainly be better than TR 200 Skaven. But skaven will get there quicker and stay there longer.

[green giant]

I played a match using a TR 220 skaven team VS a TR 226 WE team and the match happened to be quite neat, no side went on bashing everybody and scoring lots.

They are quite balanced and at the end we finished at 3-3 with a few casualties.

I'd say the Rat Ogre is better than the Treeman, but except that u can't make any comparison; to compare they must do the same thing but those two teams tend to have different strategies.

[Longshot]

thx for that information Green Giant, by the way, you re French in Paris!!