BB2016 Rules - Seasons Completed start at zero or one?

[dode74]

It may well be intended that way, but that is not what is written. You make the WTR roll then you redraft, and redrafting is the time at which you add 1 to the "Seasons Played" column. I don't think reading it qualifies as reading something which is not there

[Jorgen_CAB]

It may well be intended that way, but that is not what is written. You make the WTR roll then you redraft, and redrafting is the time at which you add 1 to the "Seasons Played" column. I don't think reading it qualifies as reading something which is not there

Sure.. but it really is a mental challange to try and interpret the text that way.

Once you played the last game of the season it is quite obvious a player "completed the season". If you want to be really "anal" about it the Resolving Downtime text never state you should roll less than the number written on the roster just that you need to roll less than the number of completed seasons.

The text in the Re-Draft section is just a clarification that you need to add one to the number of completed seasons, nowhere does is say this is where the player ACTUALLY complete the season.

If you interpret things they way you suggest a player would need to play two seasons before actually be eligible to quality as playing one seasons, where in any logic does this make any sense?

I would say it is pretty clear that once you enter into the "off-season" period the player has "completed" a new season for the WtR roll.

Note also that you don't add they want to retire on the "OLD" roster in the same way you don not add the new number of seasons the player played.

So... yes this is a perfect way of people simply over thinking a rather simple thing.

I agree they could have been more specific in the text that the player completed the season before the roll, but that is just so illogical to think otherwise that it probably are just an oversight.

Indirect they do state in the Resolving Downtime text that the season has ended... "In the Post-match sequence of your last game of the season, the Prepare for Next Match phase is replaced with the Downtime Phase,..." To me it is obvius that the season is completed once you enter into the "Re-Drafting" is just the last step of the "Resolving Downtime" step.

[dode74]

Sure.. but it really is a mental challange to try and interpret the text that way.

It's written in that order. The mental challenge comes from rearranging it to mean what you say they intended.

Once you played the last game of the season it is quite obvious a player "completed the season".

Is it? Is the Downtime not part of the season?

The text in the Re-Draft section is just a clarification that you need to add one to the number of completed seasons, nowhere does is say this is where the player ACTUALLY complete the season.

How do you know how many seasons he has completed unless you are referring to the Seasons Completed box on the roster? What, exactly, is it clarifying? It's not been mentioned before that you even track it!

If you interpret things they way you suggest a player would need to play two seasons before actually be eligible to quality as playing one seasons, where in any logic does this make any sense?

That's right: two completed seasons before being eligible to fail a WTR roll. He's not completed two seasons until he is redrafted.

Note also that you don't add they want to retire on the "OLD" roster in the same way you don not add the new number of seasons the player played.

What "old" roster? We're talking about leagues, so the DeathZone roster is required.

To me it is obvius

And therein lies the problem. What is obvious is not what is stated.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Sure.. but it really is a mental challange to try and interpret the text that way.

It's written in that order. The mental challenge comes from rearranging it to mean what you say they intended.

Once you played the last game of the season it is quite obvious a player "completed the season".

Is it? Is the off-season not part of the season?

The text in the Re-Draft section is just a clarification that you need to add one to the number of completed seasons, nowhere does is say this is where the player ACTUALLY complete the season.

How do you know how many seasons he has completed unless you are referring to the Seasons Completed box on the roster? What, exactly, is it clarifying? It's not been mentioned before that you even track it!

If you interpret things they way you suggest a player would need to play two seasons before actually be eligible to quality as playing one seasons, where in any logic does this make any sense?

That's right: two completed seasons before being eligible to fail a WTR roll. He's not completed two seasons until he is redrafted.

Note also that you don't add they want to retire on the "OLD" roster in the same way you don not add the new number of seasons the player played.

What "old" roster? We're talking about leagues, so the DeathZone roster is required.

To me it is obvius

And therein lies the problem. What is obvious is not what is stated.

It is clearly stated and the intention is rather clear... the off-season is what happens in between two seasons... that is when Downtime phase occurs. This is quite clear to me it is between two seasons. Anything less is just completely illogical.

On page 18 in the "How Leagues work" it explains in the middle of the section. "At the end of each season is a short Tournament, consisting of two semi-finals and a final, at the end of which one team will emerge victorious! A new season can then begin (after a period of out-of-game downtime.)..."
On page 19 in the "Playing a Season" it explains in the last bit of the section. "Once all of the season's games have played, the season ends in a spectacular fashion with the play-offs. Then there is a period of Downtime, followed by the start of a new season."
To me it is clear the Downtime is not part of the season but a separate phase. The order of business is "Season 1", "Off-Season", "Season 2", "Off-Season", "Season 3", etc...

The text clearly states in the Re-Draft part that you re-hire players from your "last season"... you infer that to mean the season before the one you just completed and that is just absurd to interpret it that way. They then go on to say you copy the row of the "OLD" roster (meaning the roster you used during the PREVIOUS season, the one you just completed). They then go on to CLARIFY that you copy the value and remind you to add if they want to retire and add one to the number of completed seasons.
You say that you should copy the values from the season you played before the currently played season... how will that work!?!

And yes... the rulebook NEVER stated you roll lower then the value in the roster just the number of completed seasons.

Why are you making something that is pretty clear so difficult!?!

The book NEVER states when a player completed the seasons only that you copy the old roster and add one to the value since that value is different than what you have on the old roster. This is pretty clear once you read that section... it also reminds you to note if a player wants to retire or not.

I reiterate... the mention of the completed season in the Re-Drafting section ONLY means to remind you to add one to the number of seasons played so you don't forget that since it tells you to COPY the row from the OLD roster.

[dode74]

To me it is clear the Downtime is not part of the season but a separate phase.

That's what's not clear at all. You say "it's a reminder" but what are you rolling against? There's nothing there!

The Downtime phase actually replaces the Post Match phase directly after the last match, the very first step of which is the WTR roll and the very last step of which is Redrafting. Redrafting is where you add one to "the number of seasons they have completed". It's very clear in the rules that this happens after the WTR roll. You claim it is "a reminder", but it is there as a step in the Downtime phase, and in the order in which it is to be done.

the rulebook NEVER stated you roll lower then the value in the roster just the number of completed seasons.

How do you know what that is without reference to the roster?

[Jorgen_CAB]

To me it is clear the Downtime is not part of the season but a separate phase.

That's what's not clear at all. You say "it's a reminder" but what are you rolling against? There's nothing there!

The Downtime phase actually replaces the Post Match phase directly after the last match, the very first step of which is the WTR roll and the very last step of which is Redrafting. Redrafting is where you add one to "the number of seasons they have completed". It's very clear in the rules that this happens after the WTR roll. You claim it is "a reminder", but it is there as a step in the Downtime phase, and in the order in which it is to be done.

the rulebook NEVER stated you roll lower then the value in the roster just the number of completed seasons.

How do you know what that is without reference to the roster?

I give you that you might read it as ambiguous if you read it out of context from other bits and pieces from the rulebook, but I bet the rules writer just were a bit sloppy here with the clarifications.

There are NO reasons to update the OLD roster since it is extremely easy to know how many season a player played from looking at the previous seasons roster and know you just completed a new season... why do that!?! The only thing you register is if a player want to retire since that will affect you in the redraft step of the phase.

The fact that the off-season is in the middle between two seasons simply confirm this, thus you roll against the number of seasons the player actually played which is one more than the last season roster say. Very simple really, not confusing at all.

You then redraft the players and write the NEW values there which include increasing the value of completed games. Since they tell you to COPY the row of the player you redraft they need to clarify you need to increase the value of that line since you have not changed it yet.

You do realize that if you interpret it the way you do then you re-draft players from the "last season" before this season has ended thus you redraft from a previous season... how does that work if this is the first season and why would you do that. You can't have it both ways... one way or the other. Read the sentence that come BEFORE they mention the copy of the the player data. You redraft from the "last season" not the current season, how does that work if it by that point have not ended the season yet!?!

You also completely seem to ignore all the other clues that tell that the last game of the season effectively end the season and you go into the off-season that is a step in between the two seasons. The off-season replaces your normal post match activity but it clearly is not part of the seasons as stated in several places in the rulebook.

[dode74]

I give you that you might read it as ambiguous if you read it out of context from other bits and pieces from the rulebook, but I bet the rules writer just were a bit sloppy here with the clarifications.

Not at all: I think it is perfectly clear as written. You carry out the WTR rolls then you create the new roster with 1 added to seasons completed.

It is entirely possible that they intended us to add one to the Seasons Completed score at that point, but as written you are the one reading things which are not there: nowhere does it say that you should mentally add one to the rostered Completed Seasons number before rolling WTR but you are assuming that is what should happen.

if you interpret it the way you do then you re-draft players from the "last season" before this season has ended

And you're not willing to write off that bit as "sloppy writing"?

[siggyllama]

May I humbly suggest that this very long thread can be condensed to the following points:

1. The rules, as written, are ambiguous at best and contradictory at worst. (And if you think they're not, note the unnecessary length of this thread!)
2. We all pretty much agree on what these rules are intended to do. And even if we don't:
3. The commissioner has the explicit power to change these rules for their league.
4. Therefore, there is nothing to gain from this argument!

Now what could be useful is an attempt to write a clearer version of these downtime/redraft rules. As in, the version you might use for your local league. Then others could use it if they found it useful. They could even suggest clarifications or modifications, in the spirit of helpfulness.

[Darkson]

+1 to the Llama. It might even be a good idea to get a rewritten and clear set of rules and send it to Andy et al @GW so the could add it to the FAQ/clarification document.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I give you that you might read it as ambiguous if you read it out of context from other bits and pieces from the rulebook, but I bet the rules writer just were a bit sloppy here with the clarifications.

Not at all: I think it is perfectly clear as written. You carry out the WTR rolls then you create the new roster with 1 added to seasons completed.

It is entirely possible that they intended us to add one to the Seasons Completed score at that point, but as written you are the one reading things which are not there: nowhere does it say that you should mentally add one to the rostered Completed Seasons number before rolling WTR but you are assuming that is what should happen.

if you interpret it the way you do then you re-draft players from the "last season" before this season has ended

And you're not willing to write off that bit as "sloppy writing"?

Well... it simply make more sense when you read the whole book and look at what the off-seasons is about to represent.

As I said.. I agree it is ambiguous. I don't for a second think they meant that a player would actually go three season before there is a 1/6 chance for wanting to quit.

I do find it hard to swallow the logic in that you don't consider a player having completed a season as the off-season start when it clearly is not part of any season but is a separate phase in between seasons, out-of-game as they ruled it in one place.

[Jorgen_CAB]

May I humbly suggest that this very long thread can be condensed to the following points:

1. The rules, as written, are ambiguous at best and contradictory at worst. (And if you think they're not, note the unnecessary length of this thread!)
2. We all pretty much agree on what these rules are intended to do. And even if we don't:
3. The commissioner has the explicit power to change these rules for their league.
4. Therefore, there is nothing to gain from this argument!

Now what could be useful is an attempt to write a clearer version of these downtime/redraft rules. As in, the version you might use for your local league. Then others could use it if they found it useful. They could even suggest clarifications or modifications, in the spirit of helpfulness.

True... but I find it sort of important to find out the truth since it certainly is a balance issue they designed the rules around. I hope they clarify this a bit more in the future.

[dode74]

siggy - all valid points but, like Jorgen_CAB, I think it is important to consider the intent.

I do find it hard to swallow the logic in that you don't consider a player having completed a season as the off-season start when it clearly is not part of any season but is a separate phase in between seasons, out-of-game as they ruled it in one place.

An example of a similar rule which we all accept is passing. It is entirely illogical that an intercept roll should be made before the pass roll but that is the intent and has been clarified as such. Logic dictates otherwise, but the rule as written is very clear and we all accept it regardless. Similarly, as much as logic might dictate where the first WTR roll "should" be able to be failed the rules as written are clear.

[Jorgen_CAB]

siggy - all valid points but, like Jorgen_CAB, I think it is important to consider the intent.

I do find it hard to swallow the logic in that you don't consider a player having completed a season as the off-season start when it clearly is not part of any season but is a separate phase in between seasons, out-of-game as they ruled it in one place.

An example of a similar rule which we all accept is passing. It is entirely illogical that an intercept roll should be made before the pass roll but that is the intent and has been clarified as such. Logic dictates otherwise, but the rule as written is very clear and we all accept it regardless. Similarly, as much as logic might dictate where the first WTR roll "should" be able to be failed the rules as written are clear.

Sure... but in this case I actually don't think it is the intent. It actually seem more balanced if it is two played seasons and that is also a bit more intuitive when you read the text about the player completing two seasons. Especially since the off-season and the start of the Downtown phase is outside any seasons.

I really think there needs to be a clarification on the rules here. Having the completed season value drag behind by one just seem strange.

[dode74]

I asked James Hewitt on FB and he has confirmed my interpretation is correct. At work atm but will add the link here later.

[Darkson]

(And I bet if you asked Andy separately he'd confirm you were incorrect. )