Sure Hands for elven throwers???

[wesleytj]

my elves don't throw long bombs that often. what they DO is pick up the ball a lot, meaning that for me sure hands is way more useful.

[zeroalpha]

I seem to be caught up between sure hands and dodge for the second skill. Accurate is always first but everyone knows that. This is due mainly to my inability to roll doubles and aquire strong arm, and the fact that my thrower always finds dodge a good skill for snaking forward to get a better position to pass from. I guess it depends on the opposition.
As for taking catch, well i think its a waste of a skill for the thrower, i tend to use him to pick up the ball and throw the quick passes to a line to get his SPP's up, not the other way around.

[Fronko]

Maybe we should work out the different thrower styles a bit more. It all depends on whether we tend to make an offensive (long pass/bomb hurling) thrower or a defensive (sneaking into tackle zones to steal the ball) thrower. And also, as TJ said, time of deployment is a factor.

On the offensive thrower, which is in a starting team (or amongst the first purchases), sure hands has low priority, due to linemen picking up the ball at the first say ten or so games.

If deployed later, after the linemen got a few skills, and don't do so many completions any more, sure hands grows in importance.

And when talking about the defensive thrower, whose job it is to move into tackle zones to scoop up a ball that was just released, sure hands is of massive importance, as those TZs make the job harder.

Is that something we can agree on? Have I missed out anything?

[DoubleSkulls]

If deployed later, after the linemen got a few skills, and don't do so many completions any more

I'm always using Line elves to get those extra SPPs. There is always someone near the important boundaries, or who needs the SPPs more.

IMO as the team develops Sure Hands for "normal" pickups declines in importance as you ought to be buying some TRRs so can afford to burn the odd one on picking up the ball.

[Fronko]

I suppose, this again is part of my personal playing style, but I believe using passes for skill increases on linemen grows less important after some time. While working for your first skill, you only need 6 points. So, say, three passes and a TD do the job. But after that, the gaps between those skill boundaries grow too big, as to use passes for it. I rather rely on making TDs with my linemen and keep the passes for my throwers, as he is much more reliable with them.

Of course, there always come up situations, when I only need one or two points for next increase and then I do make passes with a linemen. But otherwise, I rather try to make a TD than 3 passes. That's three more passes for my thrower with less risk and supposing my lineman does the TD I gain the same.

[DoubleSkulls]

Well the way I approach it you prioritorise your line elves based on how far away they are from the next skill

1. 1 SPP - doh
2. 6 SPP - one more than then they just need an MVP
3. Ascending SPPs - just to get that little bit closer.

On top of that you then weigh in how important getting the skill is. This is pretty subjective. I'd say, for example, it was more important for a line elf with Guard to get another skill than for an elf with Block.

So the important marks are 5, 15, 0, 11 etc. Every extra SPP you get helps make a team that can survive much better because you are less reliant on your key players (who tend to hog the SPPs anyway).

[Fronko]

Yeah, I see the point. But doesn't that weaken your throwers too much? I mean, after all, they're intended to get that essential pass on target. And for that they need skills so they need SPPs. So again, they need to make completions (which is their only way to get them while linemen can make those TDs as well).

A matter of preference really. As long as we are both winning our games it doesn't really matter, does it?

[Zombie]

Like i said, pick up the ball with your line-elves and you'll develop your team faster; pick it up with your sure hands thrower and you'll have a better chance of winning the game.

[DoubleSkulls]

But doesn't that weaken your throwers too much?

Not really, they still make the pass to the receiver for the TD, so in effect you are getting (ideally) 2 completions per drive instead of 1.

I would say in answer to Zombie's point that in long term leagues the faster your team develops the more games you'd win in the long run.

[Zombie]

The point is that yes, you want your team to develop fast. But come playoff time (the games that really matter), you don't care about development; all you want is to win. For those games, you'll be happy to have a sure hands thrower.

[Fronko]

Zombie, that remark is good. In fact, I never looked at it that way.

After all, maybe there is something more important than team development.

[lightingbug]

Back to putting Catch on an elven thower, for those quick passes in the backfield form lineelfs picking up the ball.

If your lineelf throws a QP +1 to roll with AG4 that's 2+ to be accurate. accurate pass thrower attempts to catch an accurate pass +1 to catch rool, with AG4 so 2+ catch roll. Catch is good as a RR but,( elven curse aside - I usually would roll a 1 here) do you really need it. 2+ is great there are many dwarf and orc players that give anything for 2+ roll.

I think the Spp roll for catch could be used better with a differnt skill, like block or dodge. Isn't there a thread somewhere that compared AG3 with a RR skill (pass,catch) Vs. Ag4 no skill. Ag3 with skill I think was just a tiny bit better than Ag4. I wonder what the probabilities are with those plus accurate.

My DE league team didn't have a thrower, I just developed a lineelf towards a "passer" should have given him Accurate instead of NoS though. the couple times I tried using NoS, I once got intercepted. by a player 2 squares away and the other my catcher dropped the ball.

[Mirascael]

Catch is good as a RR but,( elven curse aside - I usually would roll a 1 here) do you really need it. 2+ is great there are many dwarf and orc players that give anything for 2+ roll.

83% ---> 97%
I don't whether you really need it, but you've got 17% vs. 3% failure here.

I think the Spp roll for catch could be used better with a differnt skill, like block or dodge. Isn't there a thread somewhere that compared AG3 with a RR skill (pass,catch) Vs. Ag4 no skill. Ag3 with skill I think was just a tiny bit better than Ag4. I wonder what the probabilities are with those plus accurate.

AG 3 with RR: 89% vs. 11%
AG 4: 83% vs. 17%
lowers the failure rate by 1/3. I'd call that significant.

[Zombie]

There are two reasons why you'd want to take catch on the thrower (and both are only valid of course if you throw to him often) :

1. To save on team rerolls, which elves usually don't have in excess.

2. Because you might need the team reroll on the pick up roll for the line-elf, leaving you none for the catch by the thrower, making a turnover much more likely if you don't have catch.

[wesleytj]

I don't throw to my throwers ever really, but if I did I still wouldn't give them catch.

I don't give any elves catch, I always reason that I just try to get a skill reroll for EVERY other skill I can (sure hands, pass, sure feet, dodge, etc) so that the ONLY thing left is catching.

To me, if you make one elf a better catcher than the rest, you sort of tip your hand as to where you might throw. I get a lot of practical benefit out of the fact that every one of my elves is an equally viable target. Makes me a lot harder to defend. I think if one has catch and the rest don't, you automatically tend to shoehorn yourself into throwing just to that person.

Besides, I also think that elves don't have much trouble with offense, so why spend more skills on that? The skills are much better spent on what the elves aren't naturally good at in these cases. Most of the other skill rr skills (like dodge, sure feet, etc) help on offense AND defense. Why take a skill that only helps in something you don't need more help in?