So - about that human catcher

[CyberedElf]

+Stunty
- Catch
- General skill access on normal

[plasmoid]

Good point. G-access is a Big deal.

Still - is there any doubt that the human team is not a prime candidate for a positional that you often don’t Want to put on the pitch?

[Purplegoo]

I usually count to ten and then swerve these sorts of threads, but...

Human Catchers are really handy, I never leave the dugout without one. The level of challenge Humans as a race present is great fun. 'Everything is absolutely fine here' isn't really something you often see on an internet forum; it's harder to get worked up about the status quo when you think it's pretty decent. But I do think it's pretty decent, and whenever I run into a good Human coach, he's packing a Catcher. I could name ten positionals I'd rather go without.

I don't think it's fair to infer your thoughts on this are universally accepted truths, Plasmoid. Perhaps you don't mean to and it's just how I've read your text, I don't know. But I think it'd be a shame if Catchers became AV8 or ST3 and inched us towards what I suppose is your preferred position of everything being largely as good as everything else. Yawn-tacular, for me!

[Darkson]

+1

[Self-redacted the rest of this post.]

[plasmoid]

Hi Purplegoo,
it doesn't matter much either way, as the human catcher isn't changing, and the point of my original post was not to somehow make it change.
I just remember reading (when BB2016 came out) that various Things had been considered regarding the human catcher - including AV8 - but it wouldn't work with those minis. Which I found to be a strange argument when looking at the minis.

I don't think it's fair to infer your thoughts on this are universally accepted truths, Plasmoid.

Fair enough. I didn't intend to. And I'm not suffering from the delusion that they are.
I do feel that my point of view is often percieved as a lot less nuanced than it is (yeah, BooHoo, I know).
I've played humans a fair bit myself, and ran with 3 catchers, so it's not like I think they're shit. But I also remember quite a few of my opponents commenting that I ran too many catchers. You've also posted before that you really like the human catcher, and I'm not exactly sure you're representing universally accepted truth here either. I think the human catcher is not a massively popular positional. I made a quick run-through of the 7 human teams in my current league, and they had 10 catchers between them. So, 1.4 on average. There can surely be lots of reasons for that, but it is a marked difference to the average number of Blitzers (4.0).

I'm also guessing we can agree that humans is not one of the strongest teams(?) - even if we don't quite agree on that being just lovely or not.

I do understand that you fear the slippery slope towards "everything is equal". I just think that "everything is equal" is very far off, and that we aren't really trying to move towards it. To my mind, if we took one (or a few) steps towards that, then things wouldn't get yawn-tacular. I don't see that (slightly) more equal teams would mean we'd be going anywhere near the "everything is 6338". Equal - to my mind - does not have to be samey.

For example, The Pact team has been slightly improved with an Orc lineman, and the Gobbo team has been slightly improved with the 'Ooligan and the Doom Diver. For the life of me I can't see how this has made BB more boring. Has it made BB more boring to you?

I could name ten positionals I'd rather go without.

OK, I'll bite. I'd be interested to see that list. I'm guessing lots of 0-1 players and players with key stats weaker than a lineman.

Cheers
Martin

PS (for the record, I'm dead against ST3 catchers. To my mind that would be more "like everything else", less charming and alter the team's playing style significantly. Even if it is the bigger buff.)

[harvestmouse]

Norse thrower for sure. Probably a fair few other throwers too. I'm against an AV 8 catcher as it goes against what he is. A fast, smaller and light armoured plaiyer. If anything I would prefer him AG 4.

Maybe catchers should be more uniform. I.e. blanket ag4 /st2.

[Purplegoo]

It's not a challenging list to compile.

Amazon Thrower, CD and Chaos Mino, Pact Skaven, DE Assassin, Elf Thrower, Dwarf Deathroller, Goblin 'Ooligan, Norse Thrower, Slann Blitzer.

I'm sure (I know, in some cases) that there are some others that swear by one or more of those, but that isn't my point. I would personally rather be without those ten (and more) than the Human Catcher.

It's not changing, and hooray for that. I already regret not sitting on my hands and ending up posting, the OP just appeared quite, I don't know... Contrived? I'm sure that wasn't intended and I'm the only one that read it that way, but sheesh, here we are again, but this time the way in is a subjective opinion of what the mini looks like..? Anyway - I'm back to hand sitting. As you were!

[JT-Y]

Hand sitting is often a waste of time Phil. When you do that, contradictory opinions aren't shared. When they are equally valid they should be shared.

A lot of my job is walking a fine line of balance between contradictory views on a great many things, and I get to hear some really quite extreme views on lots of things and treat with as much validity as everything else.

Not every entry in every roster has to be honed to perfection. A lot of those entries exist to speak to the character of the roster, what it is within the world. I know full well that gamers will ignore such things if they don't like it, and there's no enforced 1+ positions in BB the way you might find in other games. So it's all fine, if you don't like something in a roster you aren't obliged to use it. Like that Minotaur for instance.

However lots of people do like these things and appreciate their presence in the rosters, and as every local league is a different environment where balance is different from accepted norms (if there was such a thing) based on the players within it, feedback and accepted wisdom about what is good or bad varies hugely depending upon who you ask.

I've said quite publicly that there are a few rosters I'll be thinking about adding players to, but I expect that if I do I'll get told here that they aren't particularly useful. That's actually kinda the point. I don't want to mess with a teams performance but there are a few rosters I look at and think are very boring for the average hobbyist, providing little variety or encouragement to get creative with conversions.
The Human Catcher is in that band. They have merit, some players swear by them. But they aren't for everyone. I'm alright with that.

[Purplegoo]

I completely agree with all of that (well - perhaps apart from the hand sitting. The BB internet is a dangerously time consuming place if you're not a serial hand sitter!). Just to be 100 % clear - I wasn't saying 'here are 10 positionals I would change / delete', I was just following through on the above point that I think Human Catchers are useful and if Martin is talking about positionals you'd not put on the pitch, I'd argue there are more glaring examples - from the perspective of a BB addict that spends far too much time playing / thinking about the game and caring about winning (sad man ahoy).

That we have 'good', 'bad' or 'average' races, positionals and skills is part of what makes BB so great. For every Block there is a Diving Catch, and I love that somewhere there will be someone who has a beautiful Lottabottl miniature acting as a turn marker for a Norse team featuring the best Thrower BB has ever seen; destroying his league with the lesser spotted Srong Arm, Sneaky Git AV 9 combo. It's all part of the rich tapestry. Get one of the HDWSBBL chaps to take you through the history and fluff they have built up around their teams over years; being exposed to my local league really reminded me that even humble players like Skeletons can take on full, virtual lives. It was eye opening.

I didn't want to get drawn on the new positionals above, but I think the Goblin players and the Orc Renegade are primarily flavourful bits that have a pretty negligible impact on where the rosters sit and what they do (the Doom Diver really isn't that frightening in practice, much as you worry on paper). Making Human Catchers AV8 or ST3 is a different kettle of fish altogether and probably has quite an impact on the roster. Which would be a shame. 'Interesting, fun but not really a big deal' sits pretty well with me.

[Gaixo]

I enjoy humans and have known reasonable success with them. I think the roster is fine and solidly 2nd-tier in most environments. So all good if you view them as Team #12.

But the background posits human teams as the preeminent team type, so it seems odd that they're objectively worse than fringe teams like Amazons or Norse.

Their eternal inclusion in starter sets also suggests that they're meant to be a good choice for beginners. It's true that they make for a good demo team, as they have so many common skills on their roster, but in my experience rookies that choose them almost always wish they'd gone with orcs (or simply bought a third team) instead.

These are the reasons we spend so much time talking about humans instead of high elves or whatever.

[Darkson]

and there's no enforced 1+ positions in BB the way you might find in other games.

Which I sometimes think is a shame (I'd like to see a 2+ or 4+ put on linemen for example), but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Skitters]

With regards to the human team, I think it should have several unique 0-1 positional's available to it to represent adaptability and having niche players.

Mostly based on the lineman
> Kicker - has kick and a new allows the player to move 3 squares immediately after he/she has kicked the ball ("Punt"? - intended to allow a slight adjustment to defensive line
> Centre - -1MA, +1AV starts with guard. Heavier armour makes player less mobile
> Safety -1AV, +1MA, starts with Diving Tackle
> lineman with Dirty Player

Perhaps a version of the Blitzer with -1MA but with leap (filling the jumping over LOS to dive into the end zone)

[plasmoid]

What Gaixo said.
I like AV8 because it is a small boost that doesn't really alter the playing style.
I dislike ST3, because it would give the human team 8 excellent blizters (whether you keep them at MA8 or knock them back to MA7). It would be a different team.
Same thinh with AG4. Gutter Runners rocl the skaven team. Giving the human team 4 almost-gutter-runners would, IMO, make it a very different team.

But hey - three cheers for house rules
Cheers
Martin

[Lyracian]

It's not a challenging list to compile.
Amazon Thrower, CD and Chaos Mino, Pact Skaven, DE Assassin, Elf Thrower, Dwarf Deathroller, Goblin 'Ooligan, Norse Thrower, Slann Blitzer.
I'm sure (I know, in some cases) that there are some others that swear by one or more of those

Mostly the weaker throwers (that lack sure hands) and the worst of the Big Guys. Interesting you list the Elf Thrower but not the Wood/High Thrower or even the Orc Thrower that many people dislike.

I've said quite publicly that there are a few rosters I'll be thinking about adding players to, but I expect that if I do I'll get told here that they aren't particularly useful. That's actually kinda the point. I don't want to mess with a teams performance but there are a few rosters I look at and think are very boring for the average hobbyist, providing little variety or encouragement to get creative with conversions.
The Human Catcher is in that band. They have merit, some players swear by them. But they aren't for everyone. I'm alright with that.

There are a few teams that could do with a bit of variety. The Norse and Nurgle certainly got improved by there LRB5 make over.

As for the Human Catcher I would rather have seen AV 8 just so they were good at something. They are just not a good team for beginners which is a shame when everyone who buys the game gets them and then you end up with half the league playing Orcs...

[JPB]

A minor, but perhaps interesting, point is that in 3rd edition (1994) teams were allowed permanent star-players.
4th edition (2001) changed that, and basically all teams got a rookie version of the removed star-players instead (Morg got replaced by an Ogre Big Guy, Chaos Dwarf got the addition of the Bull Centaur to their roster etc).
The only exception* was the Human Team who did not get a Human Blocker for the removed Zug, technically nerfing the team moving from 3rd to 4th.

This has not that much to do with the Human Catcher, but I always thought of it as an interesting aspect often overlooked.

(*well, the other exception was the Vampir, but that was probably less significant. )

Otherwise (if Humans don't need a boost) (and it's only about an underused position) I would actually do nothing. I think the Human Catcher was fine as it was (i.e. an optional player that some figure out, some don't and it's fine either way).

But the background posits human teams as the preeminent team type, so it seems odd that they're objectively worse than fringe teams like Amazons or Norse.

Funny enough, (as it can really seem that way), this is actually not really true. Background wise it is only one team (the Reikland Reavers) that carries the load of Human dominance, and beside that there is not really a Human team to speak off (Marauders perhaps, and if digging deep the Creeveland Crescents). Other races are much better represented in the background power wise (Orks to start with (two top teams in the Eye and the Raiders) probably followed by Dark Elf (one top team and several minor contenders). Other races have more famous teams than Human, like Elves have the Eagles and Gladiators, Dwarf the Giants and Warhammerers etc. In fact, even Norse is fairly close to Human teams (Vynheim Valkires, Arctic Cragspiders and Asgard Raven vs Reavers, Marauders and Crescents). Amazon are too young to have made an impact yet. But overall, almost every (old) race has one top team, and a few minor ones. Human being preeminent is rather a Reavers being preeminent thing (i.e. it is rather representative of a single team than an entire race, and as the BB background is more about teams than races, I don't think that Reaver dominance can be automatically translated into Human dominance.)