So - about that human catcher

[JT-Y]

That's a good point and true up to a point, but there's a bit more to it.

We (GW) haven't actually written that much background for BB over the years. Well, we have, but not like we have for other games. We've focused on a few teams and a few events. I get to change that somewhat, but that's a topic for another time.

The reason for the seeming focus on humans isn't the way they've been presented though, it's far more simple than that.
Humans relate to humans. Everything we write is written from a human perspective so that players can relate to it. We don't write about orcs from their perspective because they are alien and don't think like us, we write about how humans view them. The same is true with most races, we write about how they relate to humans, even Elves and Dwarfs are alien, so whilst we can relate more to them, we explore their relationships with the human races of the Warhammer and BB worlds.
This is deliberate as it allows us players, most of whom are human, to relate to the worlds, to understand them and get more enjoyment from them.

Most players are drawn to human teams or armies early on, not because of the way they are presented, at first players don't know that stuff, but because they understand what humans are. It's comfortable.
The first stop with that for a newcomer to this game is what they see as human most readily. And we call one team 'human' so that's pretty easy. Norse, Amazon and the Chaos teams are human, but players have to realise that as they explore the setting. There's an argument that we could call the Human roster 'Pro Human' or 'Empire' or similar, because there are other human teams as well, but that's by the by.

Human teams aren't preeminent in the sport or in the world, if any team could be considered so it'd actually be Dark or Union elves, they have the lions share of talent, but we try to represent all races equally because it is important not to play favourites.
Humans are the preeminent narrators though, because it's the natural way to do it, and because the BB world, like the Warhammer world, centres around the Old World and the Empire and the human races therein. But again, that's so that we reading this stuff have a relate able starting point.

[Rolex]

That is actually very interesting.

Look forward to read more background (2nd ed. compendiums were awesome).

[Mystic Force]

My only gripe with the current release of BB is the writing style of the background, aka "fluff" Which in the latest incarnation seems to be more sports cliché than sports parody. The humour has been toned down (less wacky stuff going on) and the style is more serious and competitive.

Does this matter? Not really, most likely you will read the background article once or twice and then that's it. But in some ways this does set the expectation. The table top game is more serious and the randomness of the game less accepted. But gaming has been trending in this direction for a while now.

[faust_33]

Humans are the preeminent narrators though.

"What do you think about that Bob?"

"Well Jim, I wouldn't get your fangs out over it. He surely didn't mean us two!"

The whole 'Human narrative' thing was actually a criticism I leveled at the Blood Bowl comic series recently. I'm tired of them focusing on Human teams all the time, and would be more excited if they wrote a comic based on one of the other teams. There are a lot of other teams out there.

For new people, I certainly understand the desire to cater to the familiar. When I teach new people, I give them the choice of Humans or Orcs teams. Nearly all choose "Humans". Once they learn the basics of the game and understand it better, very few choose Humans as their team. It's likely a case of selecting something familiar when everything is new and alien.

[JPB]

The reason for the seeming focus on humans isn't the way they've been presented though, it's far more simple than that.

I can't disagree with that (because it's true). Except that it does not exactly reflect what I said.

I didn't say that Human teams shouldn't be the roster for beginners. I only meant that this argument „human roster needs to be strong because so are human“ is funny as it doesn't turn out to be true, surprisingly, as Human teams are not represented as strong in the background with one exception.

But every race has that exception.

So human are not preeminent. In fact they are rather mediocre (once the Reaver's sun sinks).
(However; I do think playing a Human team should have a more realistic chance of building a „Reikland Reavers“ version, as it does right now.)

However, I have to say that BB is not written from a human perspective, it's written from a sport perspective (the game was discovered in Amorica by an Orc, and translated by a Dwarf).
Human play little to no role in the history of BB. That human perspective thing is a „Warhammer“ concept.

It's even arguable if BB even should have a Human narrative, (I don't mind if a new player's first team is human, that seems more marketing than background or game design), but one could argue the „common ground“ of BB is „sport“ which everyone playing the game (as everyone playing the game is more often than not a sport fan) can relate to too.

I can relate to Morg endorsing toilet paper and who is shy in interviews, as I can relate to Varag endorsing mouthwash and recording a hip-hop album with the Eye. They don't have to be human, I relate to them as athletes and teams („rooting for a team“). I probably humanize them in the process, or actually BB does, but is that a problem in BB when Chaos is not an invading force but that funny guy who abuses people in his agony column. Why not relate to that one (wearing Chaos Rules! T-Shirts and sticking it to the elders and their stupid Reiksguard). I think GW has long ago forgotten that BB is not one of their main backgrounds and can't be treated like one (I've had been shouting this from the rooftop up to the point of giving up BB). The entire sport world setting and the humour is basically humanizing the entire BB world, as that's what humour does. Why need a „human narrative“ when there are no monsters to be afraid of?
And eventually it's all just a matter of writing and presenting it.
And it is not the 90s any more when I had to explain football fans why their team consists of “monsters”. At this point they've all seen Lord of the Rings.

Imo fantasy is an important foundation or frame, but it does not bring much improvement to the nitty-gritty of BB. (I believe the fantasy aspect only helps to cover up the violence, allowing the humour to flourish). But it has become more and more dominant since 1994, kind of suffocating the game with high fantasy elements (which does not really allow humour either). It really shouldn't have a human narrative (warhammer), it should have a sport narrative (BB). The fact that there are “monsters” is important, but secondary (see MutantLeagueFootball).

and because the BB world, like the Warhammer world, centres around the Old World and the Empire and the human races therein.

This was not always true, actually...

My only gripe with the current release of BB is the writing style of the background, aka "fluff" Which in the latest incarnation seems to be more sports cliché than sports parody. The humour has been toned down (less wacky stuff going on) and the style is more serious and competitive.

And this is also important, as the last element that made BB great was that it inspired tons of house rules like Trolls on Pogo-Sticks over the years. It really was one of the most open minded backgrounds with an insane “anything goes” attitude. As it says on the tickets for Dwarf Warhammer games “Beware, these guys are crazy.”


P.S.

We (GW) haven't actually written that much background for BB over the years. Well, we have, but not like we have for other games. We've focused on a few teams and a few events. I get to change that somewhat, but that's a topic for another time.

Actually you may be amazed how much detail there is in the old material. It may not be much (quantity wise), but there is a lot of stuff in between the lines, hidden in obscure paragraphs and, as the game runs on a year-to-year basis, with every single year accounted for, there are so many intricate links between events to make, it can become rather massive, and reveal surprising depth.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,

As for the Human Catcher I would rather have seen AV 8 just so they were good at something. They are just not a good team for beginners which is a shame when everyone who buys the game gets them and then you end up with half the league playing Orcs...

Exactly.
The human team may look appealing to the new player who wants to try some awesome NFL-warhammer smashmouth football.
Then the orc opponent takes care of the smashmouth thing. And all you get is an introduction to the the lose-o-meter (range ruler).

Cheers
Martin

[Stout Youngblood]

Humans are the preeminent narrators though.

"What do you think about that Bob?"

"Well Jim, I wouldn't get your fangs out over it. He surely didn't mean us two!"

Well, I believe Jim and Bob are a humans in an Ogre and Vampire suits...

[JT-Y]

They were originally two humans but changed. They are characters though, they aren't the voice we use to talk about background.

[JPB]

Well, I believe Jim and Bob are a humans in an Ogre and Vampire suits...

God, I forgot about that one. That only appeared once in WD 101, 1988 (a picture of them two as Human), then 2nd edition continued to use them, but never made any other hint to their species. So if reading their 2nd edition dialogue today one always sees the Ogre and Vampire, and nothing deters from that, but they are possibly supposed to be Human at that point (well, possibly, as there is no actual prove , other than the WD of course).

Exactly.The human team may look appealing to the new player who wants to try some awesome NFL-warhammer smashmouth football.Then the orc opponent takes care of the smashmouth thing. And all you get is an introduction to the the lose-o-meter (range ruler).

Actually there could be a lot of other options as well:

-Put 4 Human Blitzer, but only 2 Black Orcs in the box
-Give the Human team 0-2 Blocker (Necromantic concept)
-Remove Loner from the Ogre (TRR to manage Bone-head, and a more reliable hitter)
-Have the Orc team use a Goblin for every Human Catcher
-Give the Catcher AV8, making the player more forgiving to use. (However, Dodge+AV7 is actually a very good protection (about AV8.5) as long as the opponents' block chances are kept on 31%. AV8 is more a late game thing when Dodge is regularly cancelled by Block or Tackle, imo)
-Give the Catcher ST3 (as ST2 can feel like being a player down especially when the opponent has already a ST advantage) (and bashy is already easier than flashy imo)
-Give both teams (Human and Orc) exactly the same roster as it was in 1st (1986) and 2nd (1988) edition (mirror match-up)
-Add a guide explaining the most fundamental elements of mastering BB (which may also go a long way)
-Replace Human with Dark Elf. In my experience Dark Elf vs Orc is a fairly equal match-up
-Replace Human with Dark Elf but use Human miniatures. Although I don't think the Warhammer concept (the human eye looking out onto a hostile world) applies as much to BB

However, a lot of this really depends on what you actually want. If it's really just a fair match up for beginners make it Dark Elf (Block & AG4) vs Orc (Block & ST4).

But as pointed out the Human Catcher is not really a broken player, and placing all problems of the Human team (and how to get beginners into the game) on the Catcher's shoulders may run the risk of overburden it, and perhaps even tunnel vision.

Perhaps it needs a more specific goal (fix the human team. The human catcher. Or the beginners' match-up).

[Heff]

Human BLITZERS are overcosted. there I said it, Orcs are 80 k 6339 Humes are 90k 7338, where did the extra 10k come from? catchers were always fine, blitzers are the issue.

[JT-Y]

Im reading all this and wondering, if we were to alter the Human roster at some point In the future, how would that be received if it shifted between tiers as a result?

[dode74]

You mean tournament tiers? Because they are already a T1 team based on the design tiers. I doubt anyone would have an issue with them becoming tournament T1 if they performed to that standard.

[lunchmoney]

Im reading all this and wondering, if we were to alter the Human roster at some point In the future, how would that be received if it shifted between tiers as a result?

I imagine some will be like


Others be like



And yet more be like

[JPB]

Im reading all this and wondering, if we were to alter the Human roster at some point In the future, how would that be received if it shifted between tiers as a result?

As I said, imo, the team suffered by loosing Zug. In my hazy memory the human roster, backed up by star-players (Morg, Griff, Zug) was very competitive. Without them they became a team of role-players.

I guess the problem is that the roster has a versatile theme, and a change may need to play to that rather than making it a different team.
For example it could be easily changed into Necromantic: 0-2 Thrower, 0-2 Catcher, 0-2 Blitzer (perhaps with GAS/P) and 0-2 Blocker (5/4/2/8) (& some polishing like AG4 Catcher). If the Catcher is optional it could even be 0-4 Blitzers, but that would mean the blocker would add 2 more S access, which could be too much.

And then you open up a can of worms. I think the problem with the human roster is that there is really no good/clean way to change it. This Human Catcher discussion is 8+ years old, and none of the points have ever really changed. And all it resulted in is a 10k reduction, which arguably does nothing (i.e. stellar committee work ) (like complaining to the city council that the pavement is broken and ten years later they send you a pony).

It could be optimal to nudge the team in both directions (bash & flash) to expand its jack of all trade capabilities. Small things like; GAS/P Blitzer, Ogre without Loner (like a Zug (half-orc?) type), the AG4 Catcher, a Strong Arm/Diving Catch Thrower/Catcher combo etc. But all that may also be too little or too clunky.

Or one may add that Human teams are allowed one permanent star-player (i.e. they get a player that can carry them, like Griff as a team engine). But that may become too wacky and break design rules. But could be a Reavers' theme (Griswell's Meat-Pie empire money etc.).

But in general if the change is good and sound, people will get over it. But I don't think anyone has a problem with Human climbing up the tier ladder. Isn't it more about preserving the team type and its play style?

[mikeyc222]

Im reading all this and wondering, if we were to alter the Human roster at some point In the future, how would that be received if it shifted between tiers as a result?

I imagine some will be like


Others be like



And yet more be like

yep!