Strip Balll & pushing into TD

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sun May 18, 2003 4:07 pm

Darkson wrote:So Cervidal, your catcher dodges away from a couple of players, and runs to the EZ. Your thrower then passes the ball for a sucessful catch. Are you saying you play no TD? If so, then you're not playing the same game as I and others play, including those at the official BB tournament.

There is a specific exception for this in the TD rules. You should try reading it.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:34 pm

Cervidal wrote:To score a touch down, the specific player whose action is currently active must be in the endzone. I stand by my conclusions. I can bust out references if you need 'em here.

Bud ... if you and John are trying to suggest that a ball scattering to the End Zone and a Stunty player who has moved landing in the End Zone SHOULD NOT be Touchdown ... you both should get help.

If you are saying the LRB says this currently with its wording ... I agree. However, I'd also completely overrule it at ANY league or tournament that I was at as an oversight in the rules.

Being in control of the ball in the End Zone at the end of any player's action or after resolving a single block should be a TD. I'll make sure to add this to the Hot List.

Here are the two things I put on the Hot List:

Under Q&A:

If a player with Strip Ball pushes an opposing player with the ball into his endzone during your turn. Is it a touchdown. The wording on page 16 indicates yes as it doesn't include the "A team scores a touchdown when one of their players ends an action standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football." The rules on page 16 under the topic, SCORING IN THE OPPONENT’S TURN, say its a TD as soon as the player is pushed which would seem to preclude the Strip Ball effect. If Strip Ball should prevent such a TD, change the wording to this: "For example, a player holding the ball could be pushed into the End Zone by a block. If this happens and the player is still in possession of the ball when that single block or event fully resolves then the team scores a touchdown"

Under Cleaning up the LRB text:

Page 16: Change:
"A team scores a touchdown when one of their players ends an action standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football.
to
"A team scores a touchdown when one of their players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while holding the football at the end of any player's action."

Does this solve it?

Galak

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:39 pm

i would say it should be as soon as he is stading in the endzone with the ball and no dice rolls or skills need to be worked out

otherwise players could run in and out of the endzone with the ball and then maybe get pushed back in with secondary pushbacks, I tihnk as soon as he goes over the line with the ball and dodges/stripball is worked out it should be a td

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:51 pm

"Bud ... if you and John are trying to suggest that a ball scattering to the End Zone and a Stunty player who has moved landing in the End Zone SHOULD NOT be Touchdown ... you both should get help."

I'm not trying to prove that a rule is logical, or prove that the rule should should be the way it is. I'm simply trying to prove the rule as it exists right now. Right now, there is a bit of a contradiction.

Just look at it as acting like one of those squinty-eyed dwarves that always gets called up to pour over the volumes of NAF text!

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:55 pm

Okay good ... as I said I 100% agree thats what the rulebook says, so its a great catch as it clearly is not the way it should be.

Galak

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Mon May 19, 2003 3:42 am

what about if you push someone into the endzone and you have frenzy can you get the second block to push them out of bounds or do they get the touchdown?

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon May 19, 2003 4:18 am

They get a TD. Don't push them there. Those rules are clear. Well, they used to be.

What do I know? I'm not on the BBRC.

Period.

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Mon May 19, 2003 5:15 am

No, they don't get a TD. The rules are clear AGAINST the touchdown as currently written.

Unless a specific errata has been made or it is in the FAQs, which it very well may be, the letter of the rule means that a Frenzy victim would not score the touchdown.

As the rules stand right now, the entire bit about 'in the rare case when a touchdown is scored in the wrong turn' is meaningless. The intent is there but the rule is not.

Sorry for sounding like such a stick in the mud, but I actually gave this a lot of thought before rules lawyering this. Personally, I think the rule should be amended so that it is 100% clear that during your own turn, you can score regardless of how your player gets in the endzone. I also think it should be made 100% clear that you cannot, under any circumstances, score in the opposing player's turn. That would clear up a lot of rules queries and erratas in short order.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:12 am

I have to say:

Oh my God! You make me sick

It is quite clear that if you have a player standing in the EZ with the ball, you score a touchdown.
Look at the "Scoring a touchdown"-part:

"If the ball is thrown to them and they catch it, - - - while in their opponent's End Zone, they score a touchdown"

So it is clear that action does not refer to actions like Move, Pass, etc, but to actions that get the ball to the EZ, such as making a landing roll, catching the ball in EZ etc.

If the blocker has Strip ball, the player loses the ball before he stands in the end zone - the block hasn't been resolved before the ball is free.

If the blocker has frenzy, the player must throw another block after pushing back the other player. But the first block has ended, and the player was standing in the EZ with the ball. A TD.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon May 19, 2003 12:00 pm

Cervidal wrote:No, they don't get a TD. The rules are clear AGAINST the touchdown as currently written.

Incorrect Bud. The whole reason the Strip Ball thing is unclear is because the scoring on your opponent's turn section says AS SOON AS the player is pushed into the end zone its a TD.

Look again its not "when an action ends", its "as soon as".

Hands downs, no doubt in my mind. The current wording of the LRB CLEARLY says that a Frenzy push into the EndZone if you have the ball is a TD before the 2nd block. There is no other way to interpret as soon as. Its those exact 3 words that started this debate in the first place.

Galak

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon May 19, 2003 1:12 pm

Oh, ok that solves my frenzy question in the Rules Review thread, then...

R

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Mon May 19, 2003 4:47 pm

When an action ends, right? That player's action has not ended yet; he still has a second block to make.

But, you're right, as soon as the player is pushed into the end zone. That's what it says. I've been focusing too much on the one passage.

Quoted from above:

"If the ball is thrown to them and they catch it, - - - while in their opponent's End Zone, they score a touchdown"

No, this statement does not cover landing rolls. It covers something very specific.

And, Mestari, jeez, uncalled for, chief. You could've made your point without being a prick about it. I don't claim to be some kind of super rules guru here. I don't read the books cover to cover looking for this kind of stuff. A passage was pointed out to me not too long ago and I was trying to use its context to solve an inquiry. Bugger off, slick.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon May 19, 2003 5:09 pm

Don't let threads get to this point.

viewtopic.php?t=6309

Post by **Dave** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:20 pm

Personally I would rule 'strip ball comes before the TD' but that's my own feeling on this. After reading Galak's post(s) I'd say it's a TD but still, it feels kinda strange.