A Leg Up for Gobbos and Halflings

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If you could change the gobbo/halfling team, would you make them...

Powerful enough to be on par with the other teams.
10
11%
More powerful - but still the weakest team(s).
31
33%
Not change them - it's funny that they "suck".
53
56%
 
Total votes: 94

plasmoid
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A Leg Up for Gobbos and Halflings

Post by plasmoid »

Hi all,
in my experience the goblins and halflings (i.e. the stunties) rarely get played, because they just can't compete with the other teams. They may be joke teams - but the joke ends up being on the coach who plays them. Getting stunty teams to take the pitch - now _that_ would be _real_ fun!

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, countless alternative stunty teams are a testemony to this. I recently raised the issue on the BB mailing list, and the replies showed that 3 attitudes prevail:
1) That "stunties" should be improved.
2) That "stunties" should be the worst teams.
3) That "stunties" should continue to be joke teams (i.e. suck).

I've decided to ignore view number 3, as these coaches are also the coaches least likely to ever play the team. But it is possible to create a solution that satisfies the coaches of view 1 and 2.
The gobbos and halflings can be improved quite a bit and still be "the worst" - making them only marginally the worst.

***4 common fix suggestion***
1) Changing basic stats/skills/skill-access.
This is a turn-off for a lot of players. The stats in DZ are preferred.

2) Add 2 extra big guys for a total of 0-4.
IMO too extreme. It turns the teams into big guys assisted by stunties, rather than stunties assisted by big guys.

3) Letting the big guys be roster players.
IMO, a good idea. Allows these key players to use rerolls.

4) Removing the +1 injury modifier from DZ.
I recommend it, though it is not crucial for using the alternative teams below. The stunties are already the most vulnerable players in the game (with ST2, low AV and no access to block) - IMO there is no need to make them even more discouraging to play.

But if you can't change their stats, and can't add more big guys, then what can you do?
Add something else, ofcourse :)
Adding 2x2 players to each team will give them something extra, without the "stunties" being outnumbered on their own teams.

***Things that go boink***
For the Gobbo team, I've chosen pogo sticks and squig hoppers. Pogo sticks are a defining feature of gobbos in BB (and probably the most balanced secret weapon), while squigs are a trademark of gobbos in general.

SQUIGHOPPERS:
Forget the complicated squig rules from CJ. With a gobbo on their backs the squigs can be treated like normal players, and wouldn't be "pets" or "critters". Their only special rule is rolling for MA after declaring an action - a mechanic I've kept from the CJ squigs.

The stats is a combination of gobbo and squig - AG2 because the squig is so bouncy that ball control is difficult.

MA d6+2, ST 4, AG 2, AV 7. Frenzy + Thick skull. ST+AG skills.

POGO FANATICS:
Very simple. A gobbo with a pogo stick. Catch added to make them "catchers".

**The Goblin Team**
0-16 40K Goblins 6237 Stuff, Stunty, Dodge - AG
0-2 110K Trolls 4519 Mighty, Regen, Stupid, Hungry - G+ST
0-2 80K Pogo Catchers 6237 Stuff, Pogo, Dodge - AG
0-2 100K Squig Hoppers *427 Frenzy, Thick, AG+ST


*** A Deadly Recipe ***
Not only is the halfling team weak, it also has the problem of being exactly like goblins - only weaker. In order to make them more interesting, they should have something that neither gobbos nor lizardmen have.

Gobbos and Lizardmen get help from big clumsy brutes, but in my experience stunties also need something else: ST3 players who can protect the ball, and perhaps a decent passing game.

Couple this with a simple observation: Halflings live in the imperial province the Moot. Old imperial players could go to the moot to retire (just like footballers who go to japan).

Finally, I'd personally replace the treemen with ogres. Not only are ogres the "imperial" big guy, but in the warhammer world halflings and treemen really have no connection.

**The Halfling Team**
0-16 30K Halflings 5237 Stuff, Stunty, Dodge - AG
0-2 120K Ogres 5529 Mighty, Thick, Bonehead - G,ST
0-2 70K Imperial Throwers 7338 Block - G+ST
0-2 90K Imperial Blitzers 6338 Pass, Hands - G+PA

Even with their leg-up, the stunty teams are still the 2 teams that can buy the least ammount of power for money.

How do you like these suggestions?
Martin :)

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Post by Lucien Swift »

:pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

why do people persist in wanting the runt teams to be balanced with the rest of the teams....

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Post by Acerak »

For reasons that will become apparent later, the "Big Guys as rostered players" idea is not going to work.

-Chet

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Post by Lucien Swift »

chet, didn't we have a huge argument over a vague 'pronouncemnt from on high' like that last year.... something like 'if you're going to stifle rules discussions based on your knowledge of what's coming...."

yes, i'm having a terrible day, how'd you guess?

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Post by Stefan »

To my mind the "stunties" shouldn't be changed at all.
They are teams to be played for fun. :D

It is nearly impossible to win a match with halflings but a gobbo team can be quite nasty. They come along with trolls and a lot of secret weapons which could even cause them some TD's.

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Post by Dangerous Dave »

Well I feel the stunties should get a small leg up..... but only to the position they were with the "Gold" rules.


Gobbos are great fun with secret weapons - and if these come back - then the Gobbos should get more than the other teams.....


Flings - well this is the worst (official) team in Bloodbowl and long may it continue. Having said that, freebooting a Master Chef is silly - come on what Fling team would never have a Chef? It will also severely hinder team development since most winnings are spent on the Chef. So I feel they should go back to the buy a Chef for 150k as was in 3E. If they were also to get 1 "food" related secret weapon that would be cool too.


That's it, no other changes are necessary - no Team Rerolls on Big Guys, no additional players etc. It takes good coaching, luck or bad play by your opponent to win with Flings or Gobbos. That's how it should be... you always have a chance...



Dave

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Post by Anthony_TBBF »

You know, Gobbos aren't that bad a team in the right hands, I think they are capable of being competeitve in leagues with a little luck. Stunty is a powerful skill, and combined with Dodge you shouldn't be getting hit more than once per turn... I think when secret weapons come back they will be very annoying to play against ;)

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Post by Longshot »

i am against changing stuff about Gobbo and Halfling.
the only thing i agree is 4 big guys but not only for stunty teams (for all i woulf prefer).
Next thing, about SW, like we play it, they can get 4 like dwarfs and 2 for others teams. Gobbo can get them on double and a '7' and dwarves only on doubles.

I play a gobbo team for the moment and i won the last tournament (12 players) and in the current one i have 2 victory, no loss, no egality. So keep them are they are.
'We are Bad, We are Nasty, we are Green, but you're not so bad too'
a song of my team :) the 'RosWell's Survivors'

Gobbo powa.
By the way, i ve finished 14 players and my apothicary so i will show them to you soon :)

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Agreed leave them bad however return weapons to the Gobbos and giving a free Master Chet to the Halflings is cool and I'd like to see it happen.

Galak

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Post by Thadrin »

I voted for the middle option - but the stregthening should only be 4 secret weapons for the Gobbos and a free Chef HC for the Halflings. Simple but effective.

I'd like to see Goblins get 2 trolls and Halflings 2 Treemen on roster, but the voice of the BBRC says thats impractical come rules review time, so....
(at least this hints at new Big Guy rules!)

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Post by DaImp »

I personally think Gobbos should have access to 4 secret weapons (so should dwarves but thats another matter :wink: ) as this is the character of the team, otherwise they are fine as they are.

Halflings MUST have acces to a permanent Master Chef. This is the whole reason Halfilngs play BB - for the FOOD. :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
A Halfling team without a big halftime and post match feast would just not bother to pitch up. I also think Halflings should have access to 2 Big Guys on their roster. Regionally, Ogres are probably a more accurate Big Guy for a halfling team, but so many teams can use Ogres, so I am more than happy for Halflings to keep Treemen as their Big Guys. Other than that I would not recomend any other changes to the team.

The idea of adding imperial Blitzers/ throwers etc to the halflings should be covered by a totaly new team concept - ie an Imperial team (and I am sure this has already been done).

Aditionally I think the +1 injury modifier should be removed from all stuntie teams... hell their AV is already the lowest out there (maybe lower Gobbos to 6 as well?).

Basically I think Halflings (and to a lesser extent Gobbos) get a very raw deal. Sure keep them weak and fairly useless but at least make it possible for a coach to be half competitive in a league with out removing the joke/fun elements of the teams.

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Post by Acerak »

chet, didn't we have a huge argument over a vague 'pronouncemnt from on high' like that last year.... something like 'if you're going to stifle rules discussions based on your knowledge of what's coming...."

Ok. Let me put it another way: to keep the game simple, all Big Guys will be prohibited from using team re-rolls. So that reason alone would be a good reason not to allow them on the roster, and it has nothing to do with "secret knowledge." It's just common sense.

But to explain my earlier statement to satisfy the press, there's an article coming to address allies. You remember those rules, right? :) They were stripped out of the game, and we promised we'd deliver the goods on them...and Special Plays...and Secret Weapons...etc. Believe it or not, we really do try to come through on those promises.

Now here's an idea I really liked: Knocking Goblins down to AV6 and removing the +1 injury mod. This would accomplish three things:

1. Halflings and Goblins would have the lowest AV in the game, hands down.

2. They'd stop taking so many casualties as to cripple the team over time.

3. The 10K price difference between the two races would make more sense, because Goblins would simply be faster than Halflings, not faster and better armored.

That seems rather good to me. Now if you'll excuse me, I have an article to finish :)

Cheers!

-Chet

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Post by Lucien Swift »

well, of course the rerolls bit means it's perfectly logical to keep them off the roster.... why didn't you say so in the first place :P

any chance you're secretly plotting to bring back the MP's trade-off ally system? that was always my favorite solution....

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Post by Acerak »

any chance you're secretly plotting to bring back the MP's trade-off ally system? that was always my favorite solution....

No. But if this is a secret plot, I'm probably lying! ;)

-Chet

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Post by Wiss »

I posted this on the mailing list a bit ago and since I love to read my own typing and that this relates to the topic I'm taking the liberty of filling your screen with more of my ramblings :)

I know, I know they're a joke team you play 'em for giggles and put
them away when you want to give someone real competition. I started
playing Halflings in the OLBBL (www.olbbl.com : 3rd edition ruleset
with variations for flavor) as everybody loves to play them. One thing
I've noticed, and keeps me somewhat competitive in my matches, is that
they play like weeble-wobbles against other starting teams (except for
dwarves where they fall like wheat before the farm tool/machine of your
choice). The reason is that most teams don't start with block outside
of 2-4 players and you'll probably need a *POW* to put them on the
floor. Since they don't fall all the time the +1 injury doesn't really
come into play all the time except on failed dodges or GFIs.

Now I can live with the absurd armor, low move and strength and
complete lack of positional players limiting me to AG only skills, but
the real problems are with the range band negative and the +1 to injury
that is associated with the Stunty trait. Don't get me wrong I love
being able to ignore tackle zones but I don't feel that it compensates
for the negative traits associated with Stunty as you can usually pick
a path that minimizes the dodge rolls or use leap to get you where you
need to be. So now's the part where we get to the meat of my
propasal... To make the new little guy teams more viable and since
stunty is now a racial characteristic (and may not be taken by other
players that don't have it to start with) let's have Stunty counter the
Tackle skill. This will help the team in many important ways:

1) Only being able to be knocked down on a *POW/SKULL* (need doubles to
get Block) or *POW* it will help lower the impact of the +1 injury roll
and the low armor value associated with the stunty teams.

2) Being able to use the dodge rerolls even when touched by a player
with tackle will allow the players to move more easily and take
advantage of the stunty skill allowing for a more wide open play style.

3) I can't really think of a reason 3 but I'm sure there are some more
good points out there.

I don't think this will overpower the Gobbos or the 'Flings but may
make the Lizardmen team a bit too beardy... but all in all I think it
may be a good start towards evening the playing field a bit and make
them more viable without removing the distinguishing characteristics of
the little guys (fragile, can't pass worth a dime and what not). Any
thoughts, comments, or know any good 12-step programs to get me off
these drugs? All are appreciated.

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