Tentacles and re rolling......

[Podfrey]

geoff, go back to being old and bald

you aren't cut out for this thread ;o

You --------> over this tall.
can
only
join
this
debate
if
you
are


Now shut it, shorty!

[Snew]

I think Lucifer has it right and a the stupid FAQ shouldn't be in there at all and Tom's too close to the rules to see it.

[GalakStarscraper]

I think Lucifer has it right and a the stupid FAQ shouldn't be in there at all and Tom's too close to the rules to see it.

That's fine convince the other 4 BBRC members to delete the FAQ and I'll alter what I say ... but as long as that "stupid FAQ" is there ... its is part of the rulebook and thus my statement is based on the current rules whether I'm too close or the FAQ is stupid is again not a relevant part of interpreting the rules in the rulebook.

Galak

[Gorbad]

In this case there is a timing issue as to who gets to reroll last.

I decide to dodge away and roll a 5 for the tentacles roll, I decide not to reroll, as it is likely that I will roll a lower number.

My opponent rolls a 3 and I am allowed to dodge. He obviously rerolls... a 5! I now cannot dodge.

Have I already decided not to reroll?

Who has to decide first? Who has the advantage of waiting? Does the active player waste a reroll to reroll a potentially successful result?

[Grumbledook]

its like the offside rule, the advantage goes to the attacker

hope that clears it up!

[GalakStarscraper]

I'll add it to the list to clarify in LRB 6.0.

I agree with you Gorbad that the timing is in question. To be fair each player should be able to respond with a single re-roll at the point in which he would "fail" the roll.

So if the Nurgle player succeeds, and the WD re-rolls and now succeeds in getting away, the Nurgle player should then be able to use Pro to re-roll his result.

If the Nurgle player fails to grab him, uses Pro to reroll and is now successful, at this point the Wardancer should have the ability to use a Team Re-roll or Pro to re-roll his result.

Same for Shadowing.

And if all of this is going to be a big mess ... than we can change both of them to a targeted dice roll (which PBeM used at one time). If I remember correctly on a 2D6 ... a target roll of 7 + (Shadow player MA/Tentacle ST - Active player MA/ST) creates a similar effect (and could be fined tuned if it doesn't) ... and then we delete any debate at all on timing.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

If the timing is an issue ... it would be easy to eliminate the opposing player rolling at all.

Tentacles would be a 2D6 roll. Success target to get away by Active player would rolling 5 + (Tentacles ST - Dodging player ST).

Shadowing would be a 2D6 roll. Success target to move without the Shadow player being able to follow would be 7+ (Shadowing MA - Dodging player MA).

This makes it easy (timing wise) .. the math is identical (no change at all to the skills) ... the only difference is that the opposing player cannot use Pro. Then the "stupid FAQ" gets deleted from page 60 as well.

Would this work better?

Galak

[Snew]

Anything that eliminates a FAQ is better.

[Podfrey]

Fact
Tentacles is a Skill
Pro is a Skill
Dodge is an Action
Leap is an Action

Debatable
Whether Team Rerolls are in lieu of Skill Rerolls, or Skill Rerolls in lieu of Team Rerolls (ignore this line until you've read the lot and tbh more of an academic/theorethical discussion point )

Tentacles (Mutation) (p.48)
The player may attempt to use this skill when an opposing player attempts to dodge or leap out of any of his tackle zones. Each coach rolls a D6 and adds their player’s ST value to the score. The opposing player adds 1 to his result. If the result for the tentacled player is higher than the final result of the moving player, then the moving player is held firm, and his action ends immediately. If a player attempts to leave the tackle zone of several players that have the Tentacles ability, then only one of the opposing players may attempt to grab him with the tentacles.

Both using Skills (p.14):
Some skills are also used in the opponent’s turn. In this case you may choose to use the skill after an opposing player carries out an Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first.

This creates a juxtoposition from Tentacles' "...attempts [an Action]..." and the Skills' "...after...an Action..."

Option 1
If we go from the wording of Skills, then Tentacles is useless as "attempts" never happens (the Dodge/Leap is either successful or not, at which point the Action has occurred and is no longer being "attempted"). We have to take the "...attempts...", as otherwise it makes a nonsense of the Tentacles rule.

Option 2
Taking this then, the resolution order is:
(Note: AP = Active Player; PP = Passive Player)
i) AP declares Dodge and makes a Dodge roll
ii) AP declares whether to use Dodge or Pro on a failed dodge (same Dodge Action; AP declares skill (Dodge) use first)
iii) PP has option of letting a failed Dodge stand (if applicable), or option of Tentacles skill use (same Dodge Action; PP declares skill (Tentacles) use second)
iv) PP declares Tentacles (if desired - see iii) )
v) Both players roll their "Tentacles" roll
vi) AP decides whether to reroll Tentacles roll using Pro (same Tentacles 'Action'; AP declares skill (Pro) use first)
vii) PP decides whether to reroll Tentacles roll using Pro (same Tentacles 'Action'; PP declares skill (Pro) use second)
viii) AP decides whether to reroll Tentacles roll using Team RR
ix) AP decides whether to reroll failed Dodge roll using Team RR (if Dodge failed and PP elected to use Tentacles)

Is Tentacles an 'Action'?
Of course, if Tentacles is not an 'Action', then vi) and vii) need to be done simultaneously (e.g. both players nominate, in secret, whether they will reroll and then declare at the same time)

The slightly complex bit about what is a reroll
Note that if Team Rerolls are in lieu of Skill Rerolls then viii) and ix) are invalid and Team RR is incorporated into steps ii) and vi). If Skill RRs are in lieu of Team RRs then this sequence stands.

[Edit]
Whilst working on the above, I see the "completely academic and honestly not a debate point" is now being debated. No one is saying that because someone's noticed a quirk that this invalidates all the hard work you put in Galak, nor that we've changed our mind and now hate everything you've ever written.

I do like the idea of a fixed target (as you say, less complication/timing) but I'm not clear on where you get the numbers from? In the case of Tentacles, surely Str 5 - Str 3 (BoN vs WD) is a target of 5 - 3, i.e. 2+ then

[GalakStarscraper]

I do like the idea of a fixed target (as you say, less complication/timing) but I'm not clear on where you get the numbers from? In the case of Tentacles, surely Str 5 - Str 3 (BoN vs WD) is a target of 5 - 3, i.e. 2+ then

Let's stick with making the skill easier to understand and step away from any other part of this discussion.

Okay the above ... you are looking at the wrong player rolling. The active player is rolling not the player with the skill. In this case ... it works just like Diving Tackle which modifies the active player's dodge roll ... its just in this case the Active player is trying to do something before or after the Dodge roll to prevent the opponet's skill from working.

So for the Active player to be able to Dodge away his roll is 5 + (Tentacle ST - his ST).

For the Active player to be able to move away from a Shadowing player without him having the option to follow the roll is 7 + (Shadowing MA - his MA).

The math is identical (ie no difference at all in probability) and fixes any of the issues of using a re-roll (as it is no different than trying to beat a Diving Tackle modifier).

Make sense?

Galak

[Father911]

Shadowing - roll 2d6 + your movement - opponents movement, if total is 7 or higher you "get away" (opponent may not follow)

Tentacles - roll 2d6 + your strength - opponents strength, if total is 5 or higher you "get away"

so for example, my linelf is trying to "get away" from a shadowing human catcher I roll 2D6 + 6 - 8 or 2D6-2 and I must get 7 to escape.

Isn't this easier to remember? As well as making more logical sense. It's my action so I "add" my stats and "subtract" my opponents. It also falls more in line with other rolls in the game. (target is fixed, but die roll is modified)

Edit: corrected my typo. (had the targets reversed.)

[GalakStarscraper]

Shadowing - roll 2d6 + your movement - opponents movement, if total is 5 or higher you "get away" (opponent may not follow)

Tentacles - roll 2d6 + your stength - opponents strength, if total is 7 or higher you "get away"

Right ... but you got them backwards ... its 5+ for Tentacles and 7+ for Shadowing

[zephard]

editted: Ignore me, I am confused and wait till its fully explained.

[Father911]

Shadowing - roll 2d6 + your movement - opponents movement, if total is 5 or higher you "get away" (opponent may not follow)

Tentacles - roll 2d6 + your stength - opponents strength, if total is 7 or higher you "get away"

Right ... but you got them backwards ... its 5+ for Tentacles and 7+ for Shadowing

hmmm using my proposal and the 7 and 5 targets don't give the right percentages, give me a minute and I'll do some math. (dangerous grounds I know)

[Father911]

OK I think I've got it now.

Shadowing: roll 2D6+ your movement - opponents movement, if the modified roll is 8 or higher you get away and the shadower may not follow.

Tentacles: roll 2D6+ your strength - opponents strength, if the modified roll is 6 or higher you get away and may move as normal.


These targets give the same percentages as the current LRB5 system of rolling two opposing dice.