Piling on, Idea

[Icedman]

Hi guys,
Well, I voted yes, for the same reasons as Ian has quoted; the Undead player in our current league (DZ Undead) has given 1 of his Mummies POn, and as a Skaven player, it REALLY frightens me! The last game we played, I had 4 players on the pitch by Turn 5! (thankfully he couldn't actually injure anyone ). I shudder to contemplate 4 players with the skill.

Also, someone was saying that they'd be glad to see 4 of the opposing players hit the dirt, coz it gives them fouling opportunities and the opponent has created gaps for them to exploit. Now, admittedly, I haven't played against 4 POn players (tho I might be soon ), but still, the Khemri player should be able to position the rest of his team to minimise the effect of the Mummies hitting the ground has on covering the field.

And finally, don't forget that dice rolls tend to average out; there will be times when the opponent won't use POn (he's already cracked AV on the dice, he only needs MB to crack AV), which means that sometimes (often in the case of the Undead guy) the Mummy won't actually hit the dirt.

That said, I like the thoughts that others have posted, making it a type of foul, etc and I totally agree that something needs to be done to fix what is, in my opinion, a broken skill.

[Nagash]

Jervis rules that:

Piling On must be declared before the armour roll is made, not after the roll as is normally the option (you must decide pile on after the block rather than after the armour roll).

... as stated in Blood Bowl Magazine issue 2, page 5.

[stone]

I really like the Piling On skill as it is.

If the general consensus is, the skill has to much damage potential, then how about changing the skill from being skill to trait?

This would also make killer combos á la frenzy, jump up, block, piling on much more unlikely.

Hi!

These killer combos, although nice, are veeery hard to come by. To get Jump Up, the player has to have access to agility skills and throw a double (agility trait), then he would have to throw another doubles to get PO (not a single player has access to both agility and strength skills), another double to get frenzy (general trait) and still he hasn't got that block yet. Yes, norse blitzers are the exeption to this, as they have those other skills/traits exept for PO. So you would have to be an elf or a catcher of somekind to be able to even *try* to aquire this combo.

Anyways, we have houseruled PO so that you have to declare to use it *before* you throw dice for armour. If that is not enough, you could rule that PO needs to be declared even before blocking the opponent and that the PO-player goes down even if the block resulted in a push back.

[Grumbledook]

Having just read the piling on skill description it doesn't say either way as to when you say your going to use it. It simply says you can use it after a block, doesn't mention if you do it before or after the armour roll, though sense dictates that after a block means before the armour roll.

This is unlike diving tackle which says you choose to use it after they have attempted to dodge away.

[stone]

Having just read the piling on skill description it doesn't say either way as to when you say your going to use it. It simply says you can use it after a block, doesn't mention if you do it before or after the armour roll, though sense dictates that after a block means before the armour roll.

This is unlike diving tackle which says you choose to use it after they have attempted to dodge away.

Righty, since it is not clearly stated in the skill description it would mean that you could decide, whether to use it *after* the dice are rolled as is stated in the LRB:

LRB p.15
Unless stated otherwise in the skill description you never have to use a skill just because the player’s got it, and you can choose to use a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice.

Now therefore, we have houseruled PO, DT and Kick so that you have to declare whether or not you use those skills *before* the dice roll affected.

[Mestari]

Jervis rules that:

Piling On must be declared before the armour roll is made, not after the roll as is normally the option (you must decide pile on after the block rather than after the armour roll).

... as stated in Blood Bowl Magazine issue 2, page 5.

BBMags 1 & 2, as far as I know, apply to either 3rd or 4th edition, not to the LRB edition...

[kaboom]

whith 4 in agility, u can easely avoid the fight.
in the contrary, u must pray
______________________
muck muck

[Vitalis]

Jervis rules that:

Piling On must be declared before the armour roll is made, not after the roll as is normally the option (you must decide pile on after the block rather than after the armour roll).

... as stated in Blood Bowl Magazine issue 2, page 5.

That was before the rules review 2001. ie. redundant information.

I really like the Piling On skill as it is.

If the general consensus is, the skill has to much damage potential, then how about changing the skill from being skill to trait?

This would also make killer combos á la frenzy, jump up, block, piling on much more unlikely.

Hi!

These killer combos, although nice, are veeery hard to come by. To get Jump Up, the player has to have access to agility skills and throw a double (agility trait), then he would have to throw another doubles to get PO (not a single player has access to both agility and strength skills), another double to get frenzy (general trait) and still he hasn't got that block yet. Yes, norse blitzers are the exeption to this, as they have those other skills/traits exept for PO. So you would have to be an elf or a catcher of somekind to be able to even *try* to aquire this combo.

Anyways, we have houseruled PO so that you have to declare to use it *before* you throw dice for armour. If that is not enough, you could rule that PO needs to be declared even before blocking the opponent and that the PO-player goes down even if the block resulted in a push back.

We have the same house rule in my league.

[Dangerous Dave]

Sorry I'm a bit late to this thread! Since I guess its the team I was developing in the MBBL that has been quoted by some in trying to prove that the Khemri are over powered, I guess I ought to comment!:-

Code: Select all

Tamper Magnitude said:-

Easy solutions:- 

1) Foul them!! When they go down stick the boot in, use a DP or some linechaff. 

2) stay away from them! When they go down, move players away, then they can only get one per turn. 

3) Take advantage of the fact that 1,2,3 or even 4 of their players are down, thats gotta give you a big gap to exploit, especially with an elf or skaven team. 

4) Use block and dodge to lessen the chance of them knocking players over. 

5) Make like an orc team and hit them before they hit you! 

My answer to this is:-

1) Khemri have the best dirty players in the game cheap 30k skeletons. They foul you, you foul back. Fouling only counteracts Piling On efficiently when there is one Piling On player. With 4 players having Piling On only 1 can be fouled each turn. I have a Dirty Player skeleton on the team - depending on my opponent, he is there to say "you foul and I will too". Normally I don't foul much (except in strategic situations) - I see a Dirty Player as insurance for the Piling On Mummies.

2) Sure - I agree don't stand next to them. But the problem is you are likely to be already down players and assuming the Mummies are clearing up the line, its normally possible to leave a number of players in the TZs of the Mummies who got pushes when they blocked.

3) If you Pile On, then the opponent will always (under the current rules) be as a minimum stunned. So the Piling On team are at worst the same in terms of numbers standing. Sure this benefits the agile speedy teams... but remember, once the numbers start to diminish and they will, that early TD won't count for much.

4) Very true - dodge is the pain to stop Piling On Mummies

5) Hmmmm I remember an Orc team..... I scored 4 casualties in the first turn... mind you the Orcs did win! - some amazing goblin stunty plays got the result (now I know what is the next topic to ban - gobbos on Orc teams)!


This season with my Khemri team in the MBBL, I don't have 4 Mummies with Piling On - just the 3. Now in 2 games the total casualties scored by the Khemri was 16... and I played against Chaos Dwarves and Orcs. The Big kicker to Piling On is Mighty Blow. This significantly enhances your chances of causing a KO or casualty. Unfortunately (?), it seems that I have proved my point too early so the roster has been revised. The Mummies no longer start with Mighty Blow so the casualty rate will go down.... nonetheless, Piling On in its current form is very very powerful on ST 5 players - I have long advocated putting the skill back to 3E - it was fine then - always prone even if it doesn't break av does mean that you may leave gaps. As an aside, one of my Mummies has taken Piling On followed by Mighty Blow - yup he doesn't have Block after 2 skill rolls - gotta keep trying!



Dave

[Redfang]

That's correct, our league allows only one player per team with guard skill on the pitch at a time. You can say the reason is excessive use, but the issue behind this house rule is speeding up the game. If one team starts to collect a full team of guards it somewhat forces other teams to follow. With four linemen guards per team blocking really slows down the game when you have to check whose got guard and can, or can't, assist. Of course you could mark the figures with tape or whatever, but we decided not to go there. At the moment none of the players in the league have guard skill, although they could, and I don't think this takes anything away from the game.

I'm sorry, but that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard!
I guess nobody is playing Dwarfs anymore in your league.

First of all, there's only two teams with linemen that can take Guard on a normal roll; Dwarfs and Chaos. Beastmen will be too busy getting block first, so only dwarfs will have guard rolling in early (IF the longbeards manage to get some SPP). Dwarfs NEED Guard, especially against the other smashing teams such as orcs or chaos who all have St 4 players. Furthermore, how difficult can it be for two people to remember a few numbers with the connection Guard!!!
Guard is just another skill, clearly NOT overpowered, and taking Guard also means not taking, for example, mighty blow or some other St/Gen skill that might otherwise be useful.

By the way, I also don't think PO is overpowered, but I never faced/played mummies that had the skill. I do know I wouldn't feel good about placing expensive players prone, however.

R

[Redfang]

IMO Piling On is only broken if you decide to pile on after the Av roll is made. Otherwise its fine.

I've gotta agree with this though.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
as a chaos coach friend of mine once said: The key to piling on is using it in bulk. If you hit the entire LOS and the blitz victim with piling on, then only one of your prone players will get fouled. - you win!

Also, if multiple players have PiOn + mighty (or indeed PiOn + Fang) then all of them can not be "the #1 target".

Finally - IMHO - the fact that PiOn is broken isn't corrected by Dirty Player being broken too.

Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi again,
even though PiOn is currently overpowered, it should not be neutered completely! After rerolls were removed from AV/INJ rolls, PiOn has become a necessary part of a good crunching game!

I suggest this solution:
You don't add ST, you add ST halved and rounded up.
(i.e. ST2=1, ST3=2, ST4=2, ST5=3 etc.).

IMO, this should work fine because the real problem with PiOn is high ST players.

Martin

[sean newboy]

I suggest this solution:
You don't add ST, you add ST halved and rounded up.
(i.e. ST2=1, ST3=2, ST4=2, ST5=3 etc.).

Which works out to a previously suggested (in Chets New Big Idea) fix to make Po give +1 to stunty, +2 to man-sized things, +3 to Big Guys. Its much simpler and doesnt give bonus' for greater demons or massive treemen.

[Munkey]

I think the ST halved solution for PO is a good idea.

I think this will then allow PO to be used after the dice are rolled as in the current LRB rules. If PO is changed so that it has to be declared before rolling the dice then this would make it underpowered.

Personally I prefer the declaration before the dice roll as it fits with the fluff and idea of the skill better, but i'm not sure if this would 'fix' the Khemri/Mummy problem.

Ultimately i'm prepared to live with slightly less 'fluffy' rules for the sake of game balance.