Get a catcher or a thrower first?

[quozl]

Heya lads,

I'm playing in a short group stage/knock-out stage cup, I'm 5 games in and my 6th game will be the quarter final.

The team will be going on to a perpetual ladder style format afterwards so I don't want to do anything too much at the expense of longer term improvements.

The team consists of
Wardancer: 12SPPs, -1AG, strip-ball
Wardancer: 0SPPs (just bought him before the last game, where he got permenantly knocked out turn 1 .
Lineman: 19SPPs, Blodge
Lineman: 10SPPs kick
Lineman: 9SPPs dodge
Lineman: 10SPPs dodge
Lineman: 6SPPs wrestle
Lineman: 8SPPs leader (I needed the third re-roll badly)
Lineman: 4SPPs
Lineman: 9SPPS wrestle
Treeman: 7SPPs guard

I have an apothecary, two re-rolls, a third from leader, and 160K in the bank.
I don't want to fire the strip-ball wardancer until I at least have strip-ball on the other guy, and he does fine as a blitzer/safety even with ag3 tbh.

I have 2 wrestlers to take down blodgers/blockers, and 3 blodgers of my own.

So, I want to buy a 12th player to actually have a bench! I've never used a catcher or a thrower before, I'm fairly new to BB.

The thrower is tempting because he's basically a line-man with pass for 20K extra. He is st3 so he's not as fragile as a catcher. Pass skill access is something I'll obviously want down the line, but before a catcher or 3?
Also everybody on an elf team is a thrower as far as I'm concerned, especially with 3 re-rolls. And I barely throw the ball as it is, except for a 2+/2+ to get a SPP or before a hand-off to get the ball miles in 1 turn.
I worry a thrower will also hog completion SPPs.

A catcher is FAST, speed 9 (we're LRB5 for the league, LRB6 for the ladder afterwards).
Dodge helps his survivability, but not as much as
ST2 decreases it.
Though I guess even your typical st3 guy is getting a 2dice block against him most of the time, otherwise your opponent is messing up.

A loan catcher strikes me as begging to be cas'd out of the game. I was thinking I could use him as the guy I 2+/2+ short pass to before he runs 9 squares to hand-off to a lineman deep in my opponents half. That way I can use his speed but I'm not hanging him out on his own in my opponents half.

I'm leaning towards getting the catcher over the thrower. It's a fairly tight decision and I'm guaranteed to have 90K to buy another catcher or thrower after the next game, unless a wardancer dies of course!

Any opinions?

[Mootaz]

Catcher, no doubt.

[PubBowler]

As you have Leader already, it's one less reason to take the thrower.

Catcher for sure.

[mattgslater]

Catchers build other guys, 'cause they turn the guy throwing a QP to them into a Thrower for practical purposes, which is good for your comp rotation on late drives. MA9 is also really handy, and as long as you don't put them in at ILB or on the corner (duh -- ST2) they can make great use of Dodge.

[FischerKing]

If you want long term buildup, take the Thrower. If you want to increase your teams playing strength here and now, giving you a better shot at the Trophy, you should take the Catcher. Catchers needs only a few games to get their first couple of skills, that they dont need that badly anyway to be effective, while a Thrower really needs his first skill (accurate) to make much of a differense to your team. Depending on the kinds of games you play, a rookie Thrower makes spp's slower than a rookie catcher, so for long term purposes its wise to start building him as soon as possible.

Since you are in a kind of play-off thing, I would take the Catcher though, to have better chances of winning.

I dont think you should buy 3 Catchers before you buy a Thrower, either buy the Thrower right away or after 1 Catcher. A good Thrower is important to woodelves as he makes the 2 turn TD's much easier, and as a woodelf you might find yourself in a situation were you need to do a 2 turn TD with very few players.

[plasmoid]

Definately the catcher.
He is more mobile, he'll let your lineman do cheap passes, and while he doesn't have pass he is so fast compared to a thrower, that it is often like he has accurate.

Besides, give him block and he'll be more durable than a thrower.
Cheers
Martin

[Aliboon]

Catcher without doubt. Throwers are good, but you should be scoring most of your TDs on defence and the catcher's greater MV (and dodge) will help out more.

[quozl]

Thanks guys, I'll go with the catcher.

I was leaning that way, but this is quite the land-slide of opinion!

I guess I was overly worried about the ST2 causing them to die on me.

[The Souljourner]

Let me join the group on the catcher side. I think the most important thing is what you said - yes, everyone is 2 dice against him, but that would normally be the case anyway. The big thing you have to watch for is S4 blitzes with a friend. 3 dice is pretty ouchy. Still, starting with dodge, catch, and movement 9, is pretty awesome compared to one guy with just pass. The big benefit to a thrower is really his access to passing skills, which just aren't that necessary for elves, especially if you're usually just making short passes. Finally, you said it yourself - the catcher makes any elf into a thrower, the reverse is not as true.

-Nate

[plasmoid]

Dude. I've put catchers on the LOS many times!
As long as your opponent does not have tackle, then your catcher is less likely to get hurt in a 3-dice block than your lineman is in a 2-dice block!

Besides, in many situations your lineman will just get up and get pounded again (and again, and again), while your catcher can stand up and dodge away with his dodge skill.

Cheers
Martin

[AK_Dave]

From my perspective, the big reason for the WE Catcher is the MA9/Dodge. Not Catch skill. Come on, you're catching on a 2+ (without interference). Every WE (AG4) can do this equally well. The riskier task is the throw, where you need 2+/3+/4+/5+ depending on range. Any WE (AG4) can do this, but a Thrower has Pass skill for the skill reroll.

I think that you're more likely to need the Pass reroll than the Catch reroll. But you're likely to need BOTH in a pinch, roll 1-and-1 on the catch, and still have a turnover.

With a Catcher (no Thrower), you can reliably do Quick/Short throws and will likely rely on the Catcher more as a Runner (MA9).

With a Thrower (no Catcher), you can reliably (75% or better) put the ball in the hands of any WE anywhere within the length of the throwing template. Add Accurate. Add Safe Throw (esp LRB6).

Now, my perspective is based primarily on DE experience. I don't play Woodies. I play against Woodies. I'd kill for a MA9 Runner. The way I play, any *E makes a decent Quick/Short Thrower and if you have anyone with AG5 and/or are willing to risk a Team Reroll you can be pretty reliable beyond that. In my opinion, MA scores TDs.

For short development and winning your next couple of games, I'd get the Catcher. No question. But if you want a diversified scoring threat from multiple possible recievers, the Thrower makes this possible.

Get the Catcher, score with him as much as possible and let him dominate SPP. Win the games, crush your friends, and then get the Thrower.

[Mad Jackal]

@AK_Dave

Good post. And I think your experiences back that argument well.

But here is the rub. I almost never play a traditional offense with my woodies. They are normally last turn in the half attempts to score in one, or start of half two score in as many as we need to go up 2-0 or 3-1 with as little time left for the opponent as possible. So I very rarely have a need for a multiple reciever threat thrower or play.

On defense the extra movement and dodge allows a catcher (usually the one with sure hands) to retrieve the ball and ditch it out to some elf who will get it to the cherry picker or directly to the cherry picker.
This is either after an opponent's mistake, bad dice luck, or an extraction.

And, any play that wants the thrower skilled wants skilled catchers too it seems to me. So they come first as a catcher can much more readily sub as a thrower than the other way around.

[mattgslater]

From my perspective, the big reason for the WE Catcher is the MA9/Dodge. Not Catch skill. Come on, you're catching on a 2+ (without interference). Every WE (AG4) can do this equally well. The riskier task is the throw, where you need 2+/3+/4+/5+ depending on range. Any WE (AG4) can do this, but a Thrower has Pass skill for the skill reroll.

In a tournament, you're absolutely right. In a league, Catch is as good as Pass. It's a tad weaker in the moment, but it has a huge impact on your development by building confidence in your comp rotation.

But if you're saying that two stat increases and a top skill are collectively more valuable than an average skill... well, duh. But it's all good and handy.

[FischerKing]

I look at this a little differently than you guys I think. If I wanted to build a team in an invironment were I wouldnt have to worry about an upcomming play-off, I would take the thrower first, as a skilled thrower boost your offense much more than a skilled catcher, but a thrower gains his first skills much slower so its a good idea to start building him first.

Catchers are great imo, because they boost not your offense but also your defense quite a bit, giving you highly mobile agility for sacking other teams, with the possibility of specializing yourself for some defensive role. Your catcher can take skills like block, pass block, diving tackle, side step, sure hands etc. and be a valuable defensive player, as he already has the skills he needs to play a very good offense.

Conclusion: Your rookie catchers will score easily and thus gain skills at a much faster pace than your rookie thrower, while your developed thrower is a more important player for the team than the catcher as he will make all your team better at scoring. The rookie catcher makes your team stronger than the rookie thrower here and now, so it all comes down to how important winning the next few games is for you compared to long term team building.