Ideas for nerfing wood elfs - round 4: Proposal

[mattgslater]

I definitely think Wardancers, per WH fluff, should start with Leap and Block. Yes, it makes them powerful. But that's OK. 110k AV7 players should be powerful.

Removing Dodge:
a) weakens Catchers without actually modifying them, by taking pressure off of Tacklers;
b) removes a skill the WD will want to buy straight back right away. An AV7 player worth 130k better be a Blodger. By comparison, WDs who start with Dodge will get Wrestle instead of Block. Ya wanna see annoying?
c) keeps the team in players with Block. Wood Elves shouldn't look like a specialty team.

If removing Dodge alone isn't enough, nerf the Catchers. I already suggested 0-2, but how about this?

0-4 Catcher 9/2/4/7 Catch, Dodge, GA/PS, 100k
0-2 Wardancer 8/3/4/7 Block, Leap GA/PS, 110k

Sorry. That was me being serious. here are a few wacky ones...

0-2 Wardancer 8/3/4/7 Jump Up, Leap, Mighty Blow GA/PS 120k

As a combo with 0-2 Catchers:
0-2 Waywatcher 7/3/4/7 Shadowing, Stab GA/PS 110k

Or ... you could make them super-stunties (hold the Stunty)!
0-16 Lineman 7/2/4/7 GA/P 40k
0-2 Thrower 8/2/4/7 Dodge, Pass AP/G 80k
0-2 Catcher 8/2/4/7 Catch, Dodge, Sprint GA/P 90k
0-2 Wardancer
0-1 Treeman
TRR 70k

Or just the change to Throwers and Catchers...

Or... give them all Loner and reduce TRRs to 30k.

[Darkson]

Remove the Tree, remove Block from 'Dancers, remove Sprint from the Catchers.

All of the above, not just one.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Hm...I don't hate the idea of Str 2 linemen on Wood Elf team...

[Carnis]

Remove the Tree, remove Block from 'Dancers, remove Sprint from the Catchers.

All of the above, not just one.

Tree, check - the 3 other elf teams prove this does not break the team.
Sprint, check

Block - I would drop dodge, not block. Blitzers should have block/wrestle, even slann ones (who currently don't) should imo.

Imo should drop MA8 on WD's as well.

Every point of MA becomes more and more powerful the more you get as the area of operation goes up almost exponentially. (MA1= 8 squares, MA2 = 24squares, MA3 = 48 Squares, MA4 =80 squares, MA5 120squares, MA6 168, MA7 225, MA8 289 squares). That's what really makes wardancers such a pain compared to other blitzers.

7347 Block, Leap 110k/100k is not a super player anymore. It's just an elf blitzer with one skillup & -AV.
8247 dodge, catch catchers would be much more reasonable as well. You could still get +MA, +MA, +sprint but it would actually be rare, and not commonplace as it is now.

[DoubleSkulls]

Remove Treemen from the roster and Deeproot replaces Bertha in the available stars.

Replace block with sidestep on the war dancers
Remove block from the war dancers
MA7 War Dancers

I don't think nerfs on the other positions are needed.

[mattgslater]

I really like the "remove Treeman" bit. That would really be most of what you need in league play, and would keep them structurally in line with other elves. In a tournament it would be a flavor-reducer more than a power thing.

I also like MA7 Wardancers, but not as much.

I don't like replacing Block with what's already an early WD selection, at least not for league house rules. In league play there's no difference starting on match 2 or 3, except that they're now shoehorned into one particular top selection, which isn't fun but isn't weak. In a tournament format, or a very short season with no postseason tournament, this is a real nerf.

Dropping Block off entirely is a bigger nerf than dropping Dodge with rookie teams. After that, it's a little bit smaller, as Wrestle is really nasty on a Wardancer (it's the same if you replace it with SS, as SS combos better with Block). Remember, if the WD starts with just one anti-damage skill in a league format, he'll have the other in 2 games, just about guaranteed. He's AV7 and horrifically expensive: he can't afford to go without both survival skills. In a tournament, dropping Dodge and dropping Block are comparable in power, but dropping Dodge is a lot more fun, as it allows for less conventional development.

What about 130k Wardancers, otherwise as-is? They're worth it, but it means that a 2-WD build doesn't have enough money to take a Catcher and still have 2RR; if he wants a Catcher, he can take 3 (or 2 and a Thrower) and suffer with 1RR, or he can trade down a Wardancer for a Catcher and 3RR, or 3 Catchers/Throwers. This would have the added bennie that combined with removing the Tree, the two take an ignorable 30k off the team's optimal TV, making the difference much easier to evaluate than removing the Tree alone.

[Carnis]

And perhaps even more than undead, these guys start out extremely strong, but crumble hard at high TV.
Nixing the tree will just hurt them when they don't need to be hurt.

Cheers
Martin

Do woodies really ever crumble? I have not withnessed it anyway. The low AV7 starts to lose meaning when block/dodge/ss become commonplace on the linemen & the high AG4 starts to gain more meaning at the same time. The tree also cuts down LOS losses & they have an eternal supply of fresh supermen, if any bloated wardancers happen to die they can just rehire a perfect 120k blitzer. Furthermore, the 120k tree is insane bang for the buck on a supposedly "weak" blocking team. Getting multiblock tree will give you numerous 2die blocks with mighty blow & st6/stand firm is just mean no matter where it's standing.

Imo the success of pro elves in general should be enough to prove that woodies can take a big hit and remain competitive.

Lose the tree (get deeproot to replace bertha though).
0-2 Wardancer 7 3 4 7 Block, Leap 100k GA/SP (-20k cost, lose dodge & MA)
0-4 Catcher 8 2 4 7 Dodge, Catch 90k GA/SP (lose sprint, possibly lose 10k cost as well)
0-2 Thrower 7 3 4 7 Pass 90k GAP/S (no change, could lose 10k in cost or gain a skill though..)
0-16 Linemen 7 3 4 7 70k GA/SP (no change)
Rerolls: 50k

This'd be a significant nerf/hit, but they'd still be among the top 4 scoring-teams along with pro/dark/high elves. One turning without chainpushes would be skaven only, while woodies would still be the fastest ag4 team with the best ballstealing blitzers. I'd still call this team upper part of tier1, instead of being the de-facto best team out there. I would play that roster too, whilst I won't touch the current roster as it feels like stealing candy from a child to play with it as it is now.

[Alamar]

You could try hurting Woodies by:

-- Wardancers ... Take away Block and add either Jump Up or Side Step. Keep costs the same. This will make the Wardancers a little less devestating initially.

Fluff wise I see Wardancers having Dodge & Leap. Block doesn't feel quite right. From a fluff standpoint though I could see either Side Step or Jump Up.

-- I'd rather not hit the catchers too hard. I guess if you must nerf getting rid of Sprint and keeping other costs & stats would work.

-- You could lose the Tree but I don't think that's the problem per-se.

-- You could bump RRs to 60K

[stashman]

New Wardancer

8347 Dodge, Leap, Grab 120K

Grab will nerf the wardancer from getting Frenzy. That will change alot. A wardancer is to cool to be mad & crazy anyway

[mattgslater]

Leap+Grab=not fun in combo. One only works when you move, the other only works when you don't.

[sann0638]

Leap+Grab=not fun in combo. One only works when you move, the other only works when you don't.

Not in LRB6, I think.

[stashman]

Leap+Grab=not fun in combo. One only works when you move, the other only works when you don't.

It's a nerf without changing the whole team. Frenzy is a popular skill used by many wardancers, and this is a way to cool them down a bit.

[plasmoid]

Right, this thread has been dormant for quite a while, so I think it is time to move forward to round 2 - i.e.:
Time to pick your favourites!

Remove the treeman
Throwers dropped to ST2 - possibly with a cruddy skill to keep the price up.
Linemen dropped to ST2 (now that would change the team!)
Only 0-2 catchers
Rerolls 60K

Wardancers to 130K
Wardancers get MA7
Wardancers lose block
Wardancers lose block, gain side step.
Wardancers lose block, gain jump up.
Wardancers lose block, gain grab.
Wardancers lose block, get MA7, but gain fend
Wardancers lose block, get MA7, but gain side step
Wardancers lose dodge
Wordancers lose dodge, but gain fend
Wardancers lose dodge, get MA7
Wardancers lose dodge, get MA7, but gain fend

I've not included any suggestions that reversed the LRB6 tweak to catchers, nor any suggestions considered by their original poster to be downright wacky (I'm looking at you Mattgslater)

[Joemanji]

Wardancers lose dodge

This but gain Fend works for me. You can't remove Block imo because Wrestle is actually a better replacement. If you have a 120K player with AV7, he should have the luxury of MA8 imo.

[plasmoid]

Duly noted, and thanks for your reply

As an alternative solution, if he was dropped to MA7, then his price should also be dropped to 110K - at which point he would no longer "deserve" MA8.

7347 block, fend, leap 110K?

Cheers
Martin