A team to deliver pain...

Axtklinge · Post by **Axtklinge** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:08 pm

I'm a few games away to the end of the season of the league I'm in (a perpetual league), and I'm thinking about introducing a new team next season.

I was thinking either Dwarf or Caos Dwarf because I'm planning on develop it to cause as much Cas as I possibly can (and my roll allow) and well they already have most of what is needed (high AV, block, tackle, and thick skull to give a hand).

So in your opinion does any of these two has a edge on delivering pain?
What would be the 'not so common' first skills list with the sole intent of causing carnage?

And no, I'm not angry with any player...

Cheers
A.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:14 pm

Chao Dwarfs have a bit of an edge because they have access to Claw and ST4 and 5 players.

I have a CD with Claw, MB, PO. He is just ridiculous.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:29 pm

The hardest hitters are Chaos Dwarfs, Orcs, Pact and Undead (plus of course 5.0 Khemri). Norse, Ogres and Goblins are also in that league, but they can't take it nearly as well as they can dish it out. Dwarfs can outlast anyone and do their fair share of damage, but the need to spread Guard around makes them only a "killer" team against Amazons or the 4 Stunty teams. Given time, Chaos, new Khemri and Nurgle hit pretty hard too, but it takes awhile. In a very short format, Amazons, Halflings and Dark Elves are pretty brutal, but they're not conventional "bash" teams: Norse and Undead are particularly gnarly bashy teams in short formats.

So to answer your specific question: Chaos Dwarfs. I'd rank them as tied for #1 bashiest overall (with Orcs), while Dwarfs are in the lower top tier.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:01 pm

mattgslater wrote: So to answer your specific question: Chaos Dwarfs. I'd rank them as tied for #1 bashiest overall (with Orcs), while Dwarfs are in the lower top tier.

It's not that simple really.

Certainly the AV7 linemen limit their bash-rating below average? Even if they get DP to compensate it, they will still be targets for bashers.

CD's ALSO need to spread the guard around, even moreso than normal dwarves cause they only get 6 blockers. & the randomness of claw access means a lot may be stuck at 16-31 spp with claw/guard (not a very fast SPP-generator).

Claw does give you the advantage, but only vs AV9 teams while you are better off with tackle/frenzy etc vs av7-8 teams who usually have plenty of dodge. Also you need to roll doubles for claw, THEN get mb/piling on to make it more bashy than a non-doubles mb would have been.

Short term: Dwarves, out of the 2, independent of opposition.
Long term: Dwarves vs low av/high ag, CD's vs dwarves/orcs/high av.

oryxwild · Post by **oryxwild** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:34 pm

If you really want to cause pain, don't worry so much about guard - just go for mb right off the bat.

Afaik, no one really uses more than 3 hobgoblins 80% of the time. Not much of a liability - even dwarves often have 3-4 av 8ers

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:48 pm

oryxwild wrote:Afaik, no one really uses more than 3 hobgoblins 80% of the time.

Agreed. 5-6 on the roster (depending on the opposition), 2-4 on the pitch (depending on the drive). You never have to put a Hobgoblin in a strategic spot (well, seldom...). If anything, Hobgoblins' low price means you can have an extra man on the roster (14-15 instead of 13-14), a nice insurance policy when facing bash or tempted to foul. Orcs and Undead share this benefit; Dwarfs don't.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:53 am

You don't have to put more than 2 hobgoblins on the pitch unless you want to (need to score fast for example).

Carnis wrote:Claw does give you the advantage, but only vs AV9 teams

Claw is still effective against AV8, and almost every team has a player with AV8 or higher.

JJB · Post by **JJB** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:43 am

CD's all the way, for the above reasons.

With 6 CD's, a minotaur and two BC's on the pitch, you will only need to field 2 hobgoblins, so don't worry about their low av.

And with 6CD's, you're bound to have at least one of them rolling a double early-ish, in which case you should indeed give him claw, then MB next. All other CD's (who don't roll doubles) go for the guard/SF combo to provide you with a wall of support.

The minotaur as well is a good pain giver, since he starts with MB and frenzy.

Looking for evidence of this? My CD team is by far the biggest pain giver in a short term (12 games) league, at around 29 net casualties caused. The number two is +18, #3 at +14, and then the #4 is at +6. And the funniest thing of all is that it had never been my intention to dominate the casualties, but just to be able to get rid of the key player of my opponent in any given game.
http://ecbbl.doubleskulls.net/league.php?season_id=66

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:22 pm

Chaos Dwarves. Brutal skill selections and cheap linemen means they can dish out the pain, take it and have a reasonably low team value. And with inducements they can bring even more pain to the pitch (with Zzarg Madeye being a popular and cheap choice)!

Norse are nice as well, as they have no 'weak players' to pick on - they are all practically the same only with different skill choices (bar the Ulfwerener and Snow Troll), have plenty of Block to start with and up to five Frenzy players in a rookie team. That's pretty brutal, though the team can take a real kicking if they are unlucky.

Orcs are pretty bashy as well, plus have some ball handling ability. More of an all rounder team really, that lean more into the bash.

~Andromidius

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:03 pm

If this is all about pain, and no time limit on actual development of the pain giving, then Pact, and Choas would be your two ultimate pain giving.

But between the choices you give, it would be CD. For all the reasons given.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:20 pm

JJB wrote: Looking for evidence of this? My CD team is by far the biggest pain giver in a short term (12 games) league, at around 29 net casualties caused. The number two is +18, #3 at +14, and then the #4 is at +6. And the funniest thing of all is that it had never been my intention to dominate the casualties, but just to be able to get rid of the key player of my opponent in any given game.
http://ecbbl.doubleskulls.net/league.php?season_id=66

Sadly one case does not constitute evidence (in science, anyway!). We have an orc team who went all mb/piling on 3 blitzers and caused 43 net casualties in 9 games. Plasmoid's 10'000 game pool could be a good indicator, but it only counts winrates. This leaves us with MBBL as the most comprehensive pool of data for supplying "evidence".

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/?show=Rac ... r&dir=DESC

Top3 teams in LRB5 rules & MBBL teams

Race, games, average casualties, teams:
Khemri...........373...2.51:1.57....36
Ogre...............253...2.34:3.04....28
Dwarf.............491...2.27:1.24....56

Orcs come in as 4th with the CD's coming in 9th.

Orc.................527....2.22:1.19...56
Chaos Dwarf....409...2.01:1.47...39

This ofc is not conclusive evidence either, but it's more than a random opinion.

Khemri should be removed from that comparison, as the stats in MBBL are of old & new khemri, with the old one starting with 4 MB mummies.

As for the other question of the "unconventional" skill combo that you need to pick:

CD's: All dwarves mb/piling on & claw on doubles. Dirty player on hobgobs. Block/mb/po bulls with possibly frenzy/tackle/jugger in the mix.

Dwarves: mb/piling on/tackle (mix in guard & some runners if you want to win some games too). Doubles: Jump up for piling on, or diving tackle to catch the bad guys. Always blitz with your trolls, to get them up to 16SPP asap (for mb/piling on).

In mbbl stats dwarves beat CDs by more than 15% in casualties received (and 10% in casualties caused), so it does seem like even 2-3 AV7 players make some difference.. The problem ofc is, that MBBL statistics does not calculate foul-casualties.. or does it? This could push up CASrates of CD teams a bit.

If anything, Hobgoblins' low price means you can have an extra man on the roster (14-15 instead of 13-14), a nice insurance policy when facing bash or tempted to foul. Orcs and Undead share this benefit; Dwarfs don't.

Dwarves have a few other benefits though. Immunity to foul (TS makes a huge difference there) & nearly impervious players meaning playing with 12-13 is totally ok. Plus, if you skill up your hobgoblins, they aren't that cheap anymore, but they are still AV7.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:27 pm

The sad part about using the MBBL results besides me playing in it, slurring the stats, is most of those teams were developed in hopes of winning not strictly causing damage.

There is one Chaos team on there that would show you what people fear Chaos can be come. Its Total Karnage. Its a wee scary to play against,.

Skarsnikk · Post by **Skarsnikk** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:39 pm

Chaos can become a very bashy team, I had one that caused 44 cas in only 9 games!
Though I think this is the exception in short term leagues, in the long term they're up there with the best.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:45 pm

Dwarfs aren't immune to fouling. They may have Thick Skull, but they have a minimum of 7 guys who can't be used effectively to score, and usually a very thin bench. A DP Hob is 3/4 the price of a rookie Dwarf Runner or Blitzer, 6/5 the price of an Apoth on a BH, and 3/5 the price of an Apoth on any other result (assuming Apoth on any result, that's 4/5). Runners and Blitzers skill fast, and will almost always be worth more by the time you have a DP Hob. A DP Hob may have up to a 10:11 Cas:Ejection ratio; even with just 2 assists, it's 240:342, which reduces to 40:57, or a little better than 3/2. So assigning zero value to KO or Stun, and assuming you have reserves, it's a wash in economic terms against a Dwarf Runner with one skill and either no Apoth or an Apoth-only-on-dead/permanent policy.

Not that it has to wash out... if that Dwarf Runner is on a team with 12 players, the opponent may be pressured to Apoth even a BH in the first half. If they can't/won't, the Dwarfs' tactical options will be seriously restricted, and they won't be able to replace further losses. Get one more positional down, and they will have a hell of a time keeping up.

BTW, I'm a believer in fielding 3 Hobs on a CD team. They do suffer some damage. If you're talking about net casualties, Dwarfs over CDs. But CDs hit like a truck.

Orcs over both, if you ask me. But that's just me. The best way to avoid dirty players? Don't fall down!

Skarsnikk wrote:Chaos can become a very bashy team, I had one that caused 44 cas in only 9 games!
Though I think this is the exception in short term leagues, in the long term they're up there with the best.

Agreed.

zephard · Post by **zephard** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:54 pm

Most the advice and data on all the teams is about them trying to win not do damage. If you were only going to try to cause damage, don't get the runners.

The MBBL data does not factor in fouls in the CAS.

If you essentially ignore the ball and just are trying to cause SI+ injuries, think CD can do that best, with the cheap DP.

Choas second, Orcs or Dwarves next.

Its hard to get the teams to skill if your just trying to get CAS.
But with time all things can be done. It would be a long first 3 seasons, but by season 4, your team should be able to really destroy all.

That or since its perpetual, just develop a few players for destruction, with the others trying to help those players develop, then slowly replace the support players with more destruction built ones.