Diving Tackle and Dodge

[GalakStarscraper]

Hey Galak, a friend sent me this link from Chet and it seems to contradict what you have said. Now I'm really confused . Can the use of DT be decided after a reroll?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bbowl/message/2187

Chet changed his mind since that note a year ago. Basically, he agreed with the example I have above about Block as an example and agreed that it should be usable after if a reroll if not declared for the first one.

Bottom line, if you use DT it results in a failure ... a reroll after or uses of Break Tackle or Stand Firm can save the player, but if you use it ... it will cause a failure, period.

Galak

[Haar]

While it is true that we don't currently enforce the declaration of Block on a double skull that gets rerolled, you can use the Block skill even if it has no effect on the roll. So you could, theoretically, declare using block right away, since there is no downside to it.

The problem with making DT useable on the second roll if you didn't use it on the first is that it opens up other areas of rules to abuse.

Example: I dodge, roll a 1. I use my dodge skill, roll a 4. You use diving tackle. Now, since you used diving tackle, you have made a change to the game state between one roll and its reroll. I recheck the target number for the roll, find that it is a 5, and fall over.

Next example: I dodge, roll a 4. You diving tackle. I reroll my dodge. Now, since you're prone and we have established above that you can recheck game state between a roll and its reroll, I determine that I don't have to dodge at all, or perhaps that I'm not dodging into your tacklezone anymore. So what happens? This is just plain wrong. I'm sure if I thought about it, I could come up with other issues.

I think it is incredibly important that someone official say something like: "No conditions can change between roll and reroll. It is just a _reroll_, not a re-evaluation of the whole action."

[GalakStarscraper]

Haar ... I'll be honest ... you all are making this entirely too difficult.

Diving Tackle can be used at any point in time and once applied its applied.

You need a 3+
If you roll a 1, and reroll and get a 4, I DT, I go prone, you fall down.

If you roll a 4, I DT, you fail, DT still applied, you roll again and get a 5, I go prone, and you keep going.

Its not that difficult folks. If I could program it for the PBeM tool (which I did), it must have a logical order, and really it didn't take that long to program so I don't see what's so difficult.

Galak

[Haar]

Its not that difficult folks. If I could program it for the PBeM tool (which I did), it must have a logical order, and really it didn't take that long to program so I don't see what's so difficult.

I'm not saying that it isn't a difficult timing sequence to follow. I'm just saying that you've opened up that sequence to ambiguity. You can enforce your interpretation of the ambiguity in the PBeM tool, but the ambiguity is still there. You can modify some parts of the required number of your roll, but not others. I understand that you can make a set of local judgments about what should apply and what shouldn't, but I'd rather have clear rules to begin with.

[GalakStarscraper]

You can enforce your interpretation of the ambiguity in the PBeM tool, but the ambiguity is still there.

I must misunderstand. I see very little ambiguity with Diving Tackle.

You dodge at 3+ ... you roll a 1, I dont' need to DT ... you have Dodge and reroll it and get a 3 and I use DT and go prone and knock you on your butt unless you have Stand Firm.

You dodge at 3+ ... you roll a 5, I don't DT.

You dodge at 3+ and roll a 3, I DT. You roll again and get a 5, you get anyway, and I'm prone.

You dodge at 3+ and roll a 3, I DT. You roll again and get another 3, I go prone and your fall down unless you have Stand Firm.

You dodge at 3+ and roll a 1 ... you dodge again and roll a 1 ... you fall down, I don't DT and I watch you hurt yourself unless you have Stand Firm.

Like I said, I don't see any ambiguity at all ... very cut and dried to me. I run a Snotling team and the first skill all the Snotlings get is Diving Tackle.

Galak

[Haar]

Let's say that I'm dodging from your TZ into your TZ, which my elves have to do every so often to get out of a tight scrape. Normally, I need a 3+. I make the roll, you DT, which adds a -2 modifier to my roll. The total modifier is now -2 (+1 for dodging, -1 for the TZ, -2 for the DT). Okay then. I reroll. Let's look at the modifiers for the second roll. +1 for dodging, -2 for DT. I'm no longer dodging into a TZ anymore (since you're prone), so the total roll should be at -1 (instead of -2). That doesn't make any sense.

What I am pointing out is the need for consistency and orthogonality. If you can re-assess the roll modifiers between roll and reroll for diving tackle, why can't you for other situations that would change twixt roll and reroll? What is so special about diving tackle?

That's the core of my argument. I'm playing a Dark Elf team right now, so wouldn't mind seeing DT work out the way you're describing it. I just feel that the fewer special cases are there in the rules, the better.

[Skummy]

Haar: I don't believe Diving Tackle works the way you believe it does. After you choose to use DT, the dodger has to make the same die roll at a -2 penalty. If the player you are running by DT's you, you still have to count his tackle zone in the roll to get past him. Prehensile Tail would still apply as well.

[Grumbledook]

what other cases can't you change the mods between a reroll?

you can for passing for example, you roll a 1 which is a fumble but then you use accurate on the pass reroll.


it works just like galak said there are no rules descrepancy as far as i can see

[GalakStarscraper]

Let's look at the modifiers for the second roll. +1 for dodging, -2 for DT. I'm no longer dodging into a TZ anymore (since you're prone),

Actually no he's not prone ... he doesn't go prone until the dice rolls are resolved for the dodge.

IE the exception that you see isn't there. If your first roll would fail if I use DT ... then the use of DT doesn't remove my TZ mod for the 2nd roll.

Like I said before .... you are making this way to difficult ... it really is pretty easy to get.

Galak

[Haar]

Actually no he's not prone ... he doesn't go prone until the dice rolls are resolved for the dodge.

Not so. From the LRB: "Place the player prone in the square vacated by the dodging player, but do not make an Armor or Injury roll for them. The opposing player must then subtract -2 from his Dodge roll for leaving the player's tackle zone."

This clearly sets the sequence: you go prone before the -2 modifier is applied.

As far as the pass/accurate combo goes (as well as a lot of other skills that get used on the reroll and not the original roll because it wouldn't help). In those cases I would say "No problem". Because those skills are entirely helpful (+1 to the roll, you don't have to do anything like go prone), you can assume that they're "always on" unless you say otherwise.

The LRB (p15) has this to say about rerolls: "... a re-roll allows you to re-roll all the dice that produced any one result." It doesn't really say anything one way or another, but it surely doesn't say to re-look at the whole thing, re-apply modifiers, etc. All it says is "re-roll the dice".

Look at it another way. If you can "take back" your decision not to use DT, why can't you take back the decision to use it and go un-prone? Stupid example maybe, but maybe not. We should strive for a rule set that has the fewest number of special cases as possible.

Sure I'm making a big deal out of a little thing. But I still don't think that either interpretation is "clear" or "easy". Either direction could obviously have a case made for it, since Chet went from one side to the other.

[Grumbledook]

Your opponent rolls the dice and then if you want to apply the -2 for diving tackle then you place you player prone.

If you use a reroll it doesn't mean you can ignore the mods to the roll, if you needed a 5 to pass the roll you still need a 5 on the reroll to pass it.

[GalakStarscraper]

Haar ... all I can say is you are working wwwwwaaayyyy to hard to make this skill difficult. More power to you, I have zero doubt how it works.

Galak

[Balrog]

I have to agree with Galak here, it's really not that hard.

In any case, my league requires the player to use it before the dodge roll, so it's a lot less of a problem.

-Balrog

[dakkakhan]

Haar,

What you are failing to see, I think, is that a reroll is actually the same point in time, eventhough now a skill that wasn't in play for the first roll (because it wasn't needed) is now in play, it is still the same moment in time. So all other conditions are equal. You can't say you wnet prone during the roll (applied DT) so now for the reroll that player is prone and hence his tackle zone doesn't apply.

[Darkson]

Haar, just because you are using a dodge re-roll, does not mean you are making a 2nd dodge, you are just re-rolling the dice for the 1st dodge. Therefore, any modifiers in use on the 1st one, are used for the 2nd.